These Women
Sep. 12th, 2005 11:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lls_mutantFirst off... whoohoo! No gestational diabetes! :) I really thought I would have it, just because it does run in my family, and it's not like my family is excessively heavy or anything. I'm still watching my sugar intake anyway, just to be safe (it doesn't hurt regardless, right? Right.), but I don't need to be psychotic about it.
Second of all- I'm holding a bridal shower this weekend for my sis. (Yes, I know it's not proper etiquiette. :P) Does anyone have any suggestions for games that aren't totally lame? A high percentage of the shower guests are older women who are friends or family of the groom's. I'm kind of looking for the kind of game where you can play if you want, but it doesn't take over. The two I have so far are the "how well do you know the bride?" game where participants fill out the sheet, and bridal shower bingo, where you cross gifts off your card as she opens them. Any other good suggestions?
I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the roles of women in the Harry Potter series and why I was so disappointed with that aspect in the Half Blood Prince (see![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jazzypom's essay on it), and what do I want to see from female characters? "Strong" female characters doesn't at all need to mean perfect to me- in fact, I find that even more annoying, as it puts women on a pedastal and is basically sexism in and of itself. So I've been thinking about portrayals of women I've liked. I keep wanting to do a full blown list, but I'm lazy at the moment. Actually, I want to write an article for Mutant Reviewers, so I'm curious about the response to this.
For me, I just want to say two words (and then elaborate): Aaron Sorkin.
I've now seen four seasons of West Wing, and the entire run of Sports Night, and I've decided I really, really like the way Aaron Sorkin writes women. (And that Jeremy IS my ex. Seriously. They look alike, their speech patterns are similar, and the geekdom... it's very, very scary. In a good way. That ex is a really great person.) They're flawed, but they're still strong. But there was something that bugged me when I was watching Sports Night- Dana can be a major flake, but I still like how Aaron Sorkin writes women, and I was unhappy with HBP. What gives? And then it hit me: balance.
I DO expect to see women screw up, be depressed, worry about their love lives, be bitches, be weak sometimes, to do hurtful things. We ALL do these things- men or women. But I was watching Dana make a mess, and I realized that at the same time, Natalie was holding everything together. And vice versa. The two of them (being the two main female roles on the show) rarely, if ever, have bad moments at the same point in time. That's kind of where I feel like JKR made her big misstep in HBP- I had problems with how almost every single female character behaved in love in the same book.
Additionally, Aaron Sorkin tends to maintain a good balance of screw-ups across gender and job structure. There are certain characters that make fewer big mistakes than others. Toby in West Wing, for example, rarely actually "screws up"- certainly CJ does it far more often than him. But CJ is the press secretary and has to deal with constant questions from reporters all the time, whereas Toby is often doing his job behind closed doors, writing speeches and having the benefits of a backspace key and people reading over them. And then add into that the fact that CJ is, by far, a much more likeable person (and much more a people person, to put it mildly) than Toby, and she doesn't at all come across as a weaker character, even though she might have more work-related fiascoes.
The balance extends to the love-life oriented problems, too. Dana comes up with the dating plan. Jeremy breaks up with Natalie, basically calling her a slut and shallow, which was incredibly hurtful. Josh and Amy both screwed up royally (I loved that aspect of it their relationship). Leo's wife left him because he didn't make enough time outside of work. Zoe really kind of screwed Charlie over by expecting him to be delighted that she was dating a young Sirius-lookalike in front of him. Toby tells his pregnant ex-wife she's as big as a minivan (one of my favorite lines, because it so sums him up). And Abby and Jeb win for my favorite married couple of all time, and again, they both make mistakes. And even better, their mistakes are rarely black and white. I've kind of cited more men than women here, but the nature of the two shows means you have to have more men than women, so.... But anyway, the messes are pretty balanced- as are the successes.
The last thing I noticed- and more in Sports Night than The West Wing, simply because love lives were more of an issue- when the women screw up in love, they pay the consequences. Dana's whole "dating plan" where she and Casey had to date other people for six months was a really, really dumb idea on her part. STUPID. And it backfired. But instead of having Dana and Casey throw themselves in each other's arms ala a bad romantic comedy, Casey simply moved on, and Dana had to live with that fact. I really liked that, and the way it was handled gave them both a certain dignity. Casey did move on, and Dana did live with it. That was one thing I really kind of missed in HBP- there was a lack of consequences in the emotional arena.
Anyway, what I want to know is, what other portrayals of females in fiction are people truly impressed with?
Second of all- I'm holding a bridal shower this weekend for my sis. (Yes, I know it's not proper etiquiette. :P) Does anyone have any suggestions for games that aren't totally lame? A high percentage of the shower guests are older women who are friends or family of the groom's. I'm kind of looking for the kind of game where you can play if you want, but it doesn't take over. The two I have so far are the "how well do you know the bride?" game where participants fill out the sheet, and bridal shower bingo, where you cross gifts off your card as she opens them. Any other good suggestions?
I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the roles of women in the Harry Potter series and why I was so disappointed with that aspect in the Half Blood Prince (see
jazzypom's essay on it), and what do I want to see from female characters? "Strong" female characters doesn't at all need to mean perfect to me- in fact, I find that even more annoying, as it puts women on a pedastal and is basically sexism in and of itself. So I've been thinking about portrayals of women I've liked. I keep wanting to do a full blown list, but I'm lazy at the moment. Actually, I want to write an article for Mutant Reviewers, so I'm curious about the response to this. For me, I just want to say two words (and then elaborate): Aaron Sorkin.
I've now seen four seasons of West Wing, and the entire run of Sports Night, and I've decided I really, really like the way Aaron Sorkin writes women. (And that Jeremy IS my ex. Seriously. They look alike, their speech patterns are similar, and the geekdom... it's very, very scary. In a good way. That ex is a really great person.) They're flawed, but they're still strong. But there was something that bugged me when I was watching Sports Night- Dana can be a major flake, but I still like how Aaron Sorkin writes women, and I was unhappy with HBP. What gives? And then it hit me: balance.
I DO expect to see women screw up, be depressed, worry about their love lives, be bitches, be weak sometimes, to do hurtful things. We ALL do these things- men or women. But I was watching Dana make a mess, and I realized that at the same time, Natalie was holding everything together. And vice versa. The two of them (being the two main female roles on the show) rarely, if ever, have bad moments at the same point in time. That's kind of where I feel like JKR made her big misstep in HBP- I had problems with how almost every single female character behaved in love in the same book.
Additionally, Aaron Sorkin tends to maintain a good balance of screw-ups across gender and job structure. There are certain characters that make fewer big mistakes than others. Toby in West Wing, for example, rarely actually "screws up"- certainly CJ does it far more often than him. But CJ is the press secretary and has to deal with constant questions from reporters all the time, whereas Toby is often doing his job behind closed doors, writing speeches and having the benefits of a backspace key and people reading over them. And then add into that the fact that CJ is, by far, a much more likeable person (and much more a people person, to put it mildly) than Toby, and she doesn't at all come across as a weaker character, even though she might have more work-related fiascoes.
The balance extends to the love-life oriented problems, too. Dana comes up with the dating plan. Jeremy breaks up with Natalie, basically calling her a slut and shallow, which was incredibly hurtful. Josh and Amy both screwed up royally (I loved that aspect of it their relationship). Leo's wife left him because he didn't make enough time outside of work. Zoe really kind of screwed Charlie over by expecting him to be delighted that she was dating a young Sirius-lookalike in front of him. Toby tells his pregnant ex-wife she's as big as a minivan (one of my favorite lines, because it so sums him up). And Abby and Jeb win for my favorite married couple of all time, and again, they both make mistakes. And even better, their mistakes are rarely black and white. I've kind of cited more men than women here, but the nature of the two shows means you have to have more men than women, so.... But anyway, the messes are pretty balanced- as are the successes.
The last thing I noticed- and more in Sports Night than The West Wing, simply because love lives were more of an issue- when the women screw up in love, they pay the consequences. Dana's whole "dating plan" where she and Casey had to date other people for six months was a really, really dumb idea on her part. STUPID. And it backfired. But instead of having Dana and Casey throw themselves in each other's arms ala a bad romantic comedy, Casey simply moved on, and Dana had to live with that fact. I really liked that, and the way it was handled gave them both a certain dignity. Casey did move on, and Dana did live with it. That was one thing I really kind of missed in HBP- there was a lack of consequences in the emotional arena.
Anyway, what I want to know is, what other portrayals of females in fiction are people truly impressed with?
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no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 04:43 pm (UTC)I can't tell much by the women you mentionned here, because I don't know the shows...
But I can think of a few great women in fiction. I think that what I like in them isn't just that they are independent and interesting and not perfect, but also that the stories about them are not all about the things that differentiate sexes or deal about relationships between sexes, or about womanly things (and once again I find it hard to express in English!)
First of all. Probably my favourite fictional woman ever : Esme Weatherwax, from the Discworld series. She's an old maid, selfish and full of pride, and also the stongest and cleverest woman a man ever wrote. I wish I was as good as her to make choices, and knew myself as well as she knows herself. And the author doesn't feel the need to feed us a love story or endless interrogations about her personal situation and (lack of) sex life. He does better: he hints that her personal life mush't be that enjoyable, and that she's responsible of her own loneliness and of the fear she inpires to people - and that she would have every reason to turn evil... But she has such a conscience of her choices and of their consequences that she doesn't. She's not someone to be liked. But she's someone to be admired, not for the womanly things she does, but for the things she does as a human being in a situation of responsibility.
Second one? Tillu, from Meghan Lindholm's (Robin Hobb's) Reindeer People. A wandering healer during Prehistoric times, who goes from tribe to tribe with her teenage autistic child. She's a strong woman, and also a scarred one (her son is the consequence of a rape), and someone who protects her son so fiercely that she has so much difficulty realising that she has to let him go sometimes - that other can help him grow up. One of the most original and nuanced fantasy/prehistoric story I ever read, and such a relief after the horrible soft porn that were Jean Auel's books...
In fact, I would recommend all the women characters in Robin Hobb's books (and the male characters too!). But Tillu is probably the most prominent character in everything I read of her.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 04:56 pm (UTC)I know of no fun bridal shower games. All the showers I've been to have been completely game-free (thank goodness!)
That was one thing I really kind of missed in HBP- there was a lack of consequences in the emotional arena.
I think it's even more than that -- I think there were rewards for some of the more appalling female behaviour. Ginny won the boy by acting like a brat; Tonks won the man by losing her individuality; Merope was portrayed as an object of pity rather than a rapist who exercised a terrible amount of control (magic) over somebody who had no defenses (a Muggle).
If the roles had been reversed and it was the men acting out and showing off, moping around, or using love potions to force somebody into a relationship, would the same results be so readily embraced by the readers? I doubt it. In fact, I think I can guarantee nobody would pity a man who impregnated a women while she was under the influence of a love potion, even if it was a poor boy from the backwoods. And what if the Pensieve scene had shown James Potter flying into the Quidditch commentator's booth because he didn't like what he heard? Would everybody then say, "Oh, he really deserves to win Lily now, look at how spunky he is!" Er...probably not.
And I am SO TIRED of people saying that we shouldn't be bothered by these things. Why the hell not? I have a problem with women who act that way in real life, especially when their life's goal is to land a man. Why can't I have a problem with it in fiction? In the real world, showing off and moping and conniving doesn't lead to happily-ever-after, as many women learn sooner or later.
Um...anyway. No more ranting.
I think I'll get back to you about impressive portrayals of women in fiction. I can name a few off the top of my head (all books, because I don't watch tv or very many movies), but I want to think about it a bit. (I defintely agree with
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 05:09 pm (UTC)I love Louisa May Alcott's women. She wrote over 100 years ago, but I think she achieved that balance you mention. Her women have good ideas and bad ideas. They fuck up. They succeed. The only one I never liked was Daisy because she's sort of an anti-feminist, but Josie, Nan, and even Bess were there to balance her. And ultimately, Daisy chooses that which will bring her the most happiness - marrying Nat and raising a family.
Peter Beagle writes splendid women. Jenny Gluckstein from Tamsin, Lal from The Innkeeper's Song, Molly from The Last Unicorn, Julie from The Folk of the Air and Julie's Unicorn, the women from Giant Bones... They're all wonderful, realistic characters. Jenny and Lal are my favorites, I think. Lal's a wandering storyteller/warrior, and she's anything but idealized. She's also black, which I love. I mean, Beagle's world is very diverse and Lal's skin tone has little do with her character, but I don't think there are many non-whites in fantasy. Not that I've seen, anyway. Jenny's about 15, and she's snotty, obnoxious, stubborn, caring, reckless, heroic... She's just wonderful.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 05:11 pm (UTC)This has been one of my biggest problems with JKR and the Harry Potter series so far - her portrayal of women is not (in my opinion) favorable.
CJ is one of my favorite tv characters ever, for many of the reasons you listed above. Some of my other favorites are Catherine from CSI (I don't watch the show a whole lot, but from what I've seen, I like), Rhapsody (from Elizabeth Haydon's series), Scully from the X-files (except for the latter seasons ... ugh) and Moiraine from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.
Most of those are pretty obscure, but they're the characters that come to mind when you say 'strong female character'.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 05:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 05:32 pm (UTC)One of my favorite heroines of all time is Elizabeth Bennet of P&P who puts our HBP women quite to shame. She is clever and strong-minded without being perfect, and although she lives in a society where literally has to "catch" a man or her life will be considered over at 21, she still does it on her own terms and never descends to the kind of stupid tricks so many other women of her time and others have descended to.
Another really well-drawn heroine I enjoy is Amelia Peabody, from the historical mystery series by Elizabeth Peters. At times she comes close to the sort of Superwoman characterization you complain of, and one of her flaws is self-confidence bordering on arrogance that means she (virtually) never admits her mistakes, but she does make them, and pays the price for them as well.
more fictional women I love...
Date: 2005-09-12 05:47 pm (UTC)I really liked the girls in The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, which I just read a week ago. I thought they were all pretty realistic and endearing.
Eddi McCandry from War For The Oaks by Emma Bull. Her other women are good too, but Eddi is her only female protagonist so far. (Unless I've forgotten someone.)
Lyra Belaqua (sp?) from Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials. I had some major issues with the last book, but I loved Lyra in the first two.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:04 pm (UTC)Lizzy Bennett in Pride and Prejudice is a super strong female. She wasn't afraid to turn down two proposals of marriage in a time where it simply wasn't done.
I have a soft spot for Carrie in Goodnight Mr Tom and for Rusty in Back Home. Carrie fights for her right to go to grammar school on a scholarship despite disapproval from her sister and some of her family. Rusty just soldiers on and that is underrated.
And yay for not having diabetes :D
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:32 pm (UTC)And yeah, the witches kick butt. I read a quote about how every woman wishes she could be Esme, would be happy being Granny, but suspects she's really Magrat. That amused me :)
Comic book women
Date: 2005-09-12 06:36 pm (UTC)I mean, these women had their issues, but they dealt with it. With the Ice Queen, she cried over her students, but was powerful enough to kick ass.
The reason why I get upset when people say 'it's a children's book' is the fact that at the end of the day, this is what children get their clues from - the books that we read to them, the television shows that we make them watch - almost as much as what they see us do, and this is why I'm rather narked at the whole aspect of Ms. Rowling and am hella pissed off when people give Ms. Rowling a pass because she's some sort of God. Hell no, HBP fell down in a number of aspects in my eyes, femalehood and race in the forefront.
And I am SO TIRED of people saying that we shouldn't be bothered by these things. Why the hell not? I have a problem with women who act that way in real life, especially when their life's goal is to land a man. Why can't I have a problem with it in fiction? In the real world, showing off and moping and conniving doesn't lead to happily-ever-after, as many women learn sooner or later.
What
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:36 pm (UTC)And ultimately, Daisy chooses that which will bring her the most happiness - marrying Nat and raising a family.
It's funny you mention that, because one of the characters in Harry Potter I've never spoken out against as an anti-woman thing is Molly Weasley, mainly because I believe she chose to stay at home and have a family. There's nothing about her that suggests she couldn't have had a career, and nothing about Arthur that suggests he expects her to do it. Maybe that's an idealistic reading of Molly, but given that I'm staying home myself... that one doesn't bother me. (Like I said, not familiar with Daisy, but I should read more of Louisa May Alcott's stuff.)
If nothing else, this discussion is increasing my reading list!
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:40 pm (UTC)JKR and women... I was okay with her until book 6. I LOVED McG for the longest time (was SO disappointed not to see more of her, or Gran), and I actually really like Molly Weasley. It didn't bother me too much that more of the student characters were male, because Harry's male and it would be natural he'd gravitate more towards the boys. But book 6 just really kind of frustrated me. ::sigh::
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:44 pm (UTC)One of these days, I REALLY must read Pride and Prejudice. ::sigh:: And Amelia Peabody sounds a lot like Hermione in certain aspects ;) Definitely beefing up my reading list here.
(Also, I made a comment above in the "it's a kids' book" discussion that was kind of addressed to both you and Kali, but it won't give you an email notification since I hit the reply to with her comment.)
Re: more fictional women I love...
Date: 2005-09-12 06:46 pm (UTC)Did you see the movie for The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants? I was actually thinking of doing a movie night with my junior high girls, but haven't had a chance to check this one out yet (no way could I drag hubby to it!). If you have, was it as good as the book? (I haven't read the book yet, either, but I've heard really good things about it.)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:47 pm (UTC)I haven't heard of the others (except for Lizzy Bennett), so I'll have to check hose out as well!
Re: Comic book women
Date: 2005-09-12 06:51 pm (UTC)I haven't decided what I think about the race thing (which is why I haven't commented yet on the meta you wrote), because that's a more difficult issue for me to think about given that, well, I'm a white woman in suburbia, so I don't think about it as much, and I don't really consider myself being heavily informed. But I agree about the women. And shouldn't we be MORE upset when things like this are presented in children's books than adult's books? Children are far more impressionable than adults are.
Fair enough,
Date: 2005-09-12 06:53 pm (UTC)But yeah, I'd make my kid read X-men comics over HBP any day.
We won the Ashes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cricket 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 07:06 pm (UTC)It's all about choice. If a woman is free to make her own choice, how is she anti-feminist?
Gah.
Daisy really only bothered me when she said that women didn't need suffrage. But she also refused to stand in the way of the women who did want it, so - I'm glad she ended up happy. Nan and Josie were terrific. Nan grows up to become a doctor. It's too bad that she has to forsake her potential love interest to achieve her goal, but she's young. I keep hoping that once she's established her practice she and Tommy will find their way back together. Josie is very young and very spirited. It's been a while since I read the books, but I think she wants to become an actress. Bess is sort of a beauty queen, but I think she's also an artist and - I think - she and Josie at one point lecture a couple of pig-headed boys on women's rights. Josie and Daisy are Meg's daughters, and Bess is Amy's. Nan is one of Jo's students.
Re: more fictional women I love...
Date: 2005-09-12 07:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 07:21 pm (UTC)Carrie is one of the main character's best friends in GMT. Rusty was one of the sea evacuees that went to the States and her struggle when she returns to her English family.
And as
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 07:26 pm (UTC)That's a good point, too, I think. It always gets my hackles up when people, especially other women, denigrate women who make a conscious choice to stay home. My mother made that decision because she knew it would make her happy and she has endured 27 years of needling from her mother about how she's wasted her life and her brains and "god, isn't it torture staying home with the kids?" and so forth. I am sorry for my grandmother's unhappiness - she always wanted a career, but it wasn't done in her generation and she didn't quite have the strength of will to do it anyway - but I can't quite forgive her for that.
I like that aspect of Molly Weasley too.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 08:16 pm (UTC)I can see what you mean about Daisy and saying women didn't need suffrage. I've been rereading Gone with the Wind, and it kind of surprises me when Melanie or Scarlett says the same thing. It's more in character with Scarlett because she doesn't care what's going on outside her own immediate sphere of activities, but it does surprise me a bit with Melanie.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 08:18 pm (UTC)Re: Fair enough,
Date: 2005-09-12 08:21 pm (UTC)And congrats :) I don't follow Cricket, but it's still cool :)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 08:37 pm (UTC)Ah, well. The thing is, I can think of quite a few kids/YA books that feature good female protagonists, books that I loved when I was ~12, books that were about teenage girls who had problems other than crushes on boys. So HBP feels like a step backward to me.
One book with a female protagonist that I like is Lois McMaster Bujold's Paladin of Souls. It's basically about a middle-aged woman (her kids are grown up and married, her husband long dead) who has been living her entire life surrounded by keepers, and decides to break out of that. It's fantasy/adventure, so there are magical reasons and plots behind it all, but that's the basic character arc. She travels, she falls in love, she realizes that she has important work to do that only she can do -- all for the first time, all these things that middle-aged women are almost never allowed in literature.
Well.. it 's odd
Date: 2005-09-12 09:00 pm (UTC)It's odd since the whole precept of the books is founded on race, (to the point of VMo hiding his, like hello irony?)but when it actually comes to the presentation of it, it just smacks of conversatism, that is all.
But I've been accused of bringing an agenda to the books that aren't there, at times the fandom depresses me. They only wish to speak about Snape and Horcruces. I whinge, because I find it depressing.
Yes, thanks for the congrats! It was a good match.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 09:58 pm (UTC)Yes, precisely! If I had told her daughter outright that her main purpose in life was to catch a man, Berta would have been furious, but she just shrugged when I made the same argument you and Lissa just have. I think part of it may be that she doesn't read the books very closely herself and likely shares the rest of the family's opinion that I read them way too closely, but still, coming from a woman who bought her daughter "Old Bachelor" instead of "Old Maid" and other things of that sort, it was quite a shock. and taking into consideration that most 10 year olds are even less likely than Claire to question gender messages of that sort makes it even worse, imnsho.
Re: Well.. it 's odd
Date: 2005-09-12 10:00 pm (UTC)I am pretty sure JKR didn't set out to write what she did in the way you're reading it. Of course not- that pretty much directly contradicts the blood racial theme she's setting up. It's the fact that she probably doesn't realize she did it that can be worrying.
If I was JKR, I could see myself doing the same exact thing. I could see myself creating a cast where the main characters are white mainly because I live in an area that is predominantly white. I could then see myself saying "okay, well, there's more skin colors than boring old white and more heritages in the world. I have all these minor characters. Let's make it more interesting." And then saying "why shouldn't Harry be attracted to a pretty Asian girl?" or "why shouldn't Ginny be attracted to a sweet guy who happens to be black?" But as with the women issue, I can see where it's the sum of the parts that comes out as more than the whole.
I think this is one of those places where what's on the page contradicts authorial intent. JKR means to show us an idealistic version of society in that regards- where people are colorblind. And yet I can see where it gets less clear that that's NOT what's on the page. I do agree that the pattern is a bit disturbing- I wonder if part of the reason I don't want to comment more deeply about it is the thought "DO I do the same thing?" (Right now, no, because I mainly play with fan characters. But in other original works?)
And yeah, I'm actually really pleased to see essays on something besides Snape and Horcruces. To be honest, those subjects bore me in terms of essays. We'll know the answers when book 7 is published. It's the things we won't know the answers to that are more interesting to comment and speculate on.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 10:43 pm (UTC)YEY :D That's awesome!
Strong women
Date: 2005-09-12 11:08 pm (UTC)One reason that I think the women seem weaker is that we didn't see that much of them. There is no great multichapter battle/ adventure in this book to show off the cast beside Harry. Harry doesn't spend that much time with Hermione or Ginny in this book and even less time with Luna. The majority of Harry's time is spent with Dumbledore, so we don't see that much of the women in Harry's life.
There are a lot of really great strong women in fiction. I was excited to see that someone had already mentioned Dana Scully. I loved watching the X-Files because she was a strong, flawed woman who you could really relate to. I was in high school when X-Files ended its run and watching it in reruns now as a female in a major that is 70% male makes me appreciate the character even more. One of her "strengths" was that she was a scientist and a woman of faith. In pop culture, these two things are often mutually exclusive.
I also really like the previously mentioned women of X-Men, especially Jean Grey-Summers, whose life is a fine example of Murphy's Law, but still lives with courage and dignity(please see when "ill" in Dark Phoenix Saga).
Another great group of strong women would be the female members of the crew of Serenity on "Firefly". These women are a varied group, made up of the ship's mechanic, a prostitute, an ex-soldier, and a mentally-damaged genius, but they all as strong if not more so than their male comrades.
Is it just me or have you noticed that the best places to find strong women seem to be in science fiction/fantasy?
Jaya (do not have a LJ)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-13 12:53 am (UTC)I think I'm all ranted out about women in HPB. This may be a good thing. I love the way Barbara Kingsolver writes women - complex, flawed, sometimes uncertain but strong. And having a significant other is not the centre of the universe. That doesn't help you much in terms of movies though. Will let you know if I think of anything useful.
Bridal shower games! I organised my friend Fiona's last year, and we had two that worked quite well. It was quite a mixed crowd of people our age and older women as well. Very tame but also fun.
The first you can only do if you have contact with her fiance, but email should work. Draw up a list of questions about your sister and have him answer them. Some of the questions we had were:
What was Fee wearing the first time you met?
What is the first thing you remember her saying to you?
What was your first impression of Fee?
What would Fee's ideal romantic evening be?
What would her ultimate holiday be?
What song would you dedicate to her?
What three things would Fee take to the desert?
Describe Fee in five words.
Then we gave the Q&A's as rewards when she guessed a present correctly (instead of making her do nasty forfeits when she got them wrong). We read out the question, then made her say what she thought he would have replied, then read his answer. It was quite sweet and amusing.
It's a good idea to keep a notebook and pen handy so you can write down who gave her what. And while you're doing that, write down some comments she makes while opening her gifts. These can be read out later in the context of wedding night bedroom talk. It's amazing what you can make sound dirty with just a tiny bit of imagination!
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Date: 2005-09-13 03:36 am (UTC)Hmm, women in fiction: gotta agree with
Agnis from "The Shipping News" strikes me as a strong female character--she picks herself up and dusts herself off and soldiers on after setbacks. She serves as a role model for Quoyle (a man!), who's really listing through life until they meet. (Haven't seen the movie yet.)
Can't really think of any others, sadly enough.
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Date: 2005-09-13 03:48 am (UTC):D
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Date: 2005-09-13 04:14 am (UTC)McG, IMHO, is just about the only female character JKR got right; but Hermione usually comes pretty close. And you're right, Harry would gravitate more towards boys, which is a point I think many of us forget sometimes.
Molly Weasley bothers me. I'm not too sure why, but it's not because I think she's a repressed housewife or anything (*snorts*), there's just something to busybody-ish for me.
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Date: 2005-09-13 02:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-13 03:01 pm (UTC)I really wish I'd read the X-men comic series sometimes. I've only watched the movies, but I've really enjoyed them. Although, amusingly enough, I found my X2 review and I ranted a bit about the roles of the women in X2. It wasn't that I thought they were bad, it was just that I thought that both Storm and Jean had BORING parts. (Jean's dialogue consisted very largely of her staring into space and saying "something's wrong....") There was some great stuff there, but they were a little too even. And not enough Rogue. (I like Rogue, and I really like Anna Paquin.)
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Date: 2005-09-13 03:08 pm (UTC)Thanks for the suggestions for the bridal shower games! Tame is what I'm actually looking for. I like the idea of having them guess what her fiance would say- more of the guests know him than her, really, and I don't like nasty forfeits anyway. We have some cute questions for the "how well do you know the bride?" thing (my favorite is "How many words to 'Leaving on a Jet Plane' does she know, and where does she sing them?"), and we've got the bingo, but that's a nice way of bringing her fiance into it, too.
And the other one reminds me of this game we played at a sex toy party I went to (it was like a tupperware party, only sex toys.) You wrote down the name of an appliance you had and wanted to get rid of, and the reason you wanted to trade it in. Then you replaced the name of the appliance with your husband's name. Mine was middling (I wanted to get rid of my toaster because it's a really ugly color), but my favorite was one of the women said she wanted to replace her refrigerator because she wanted a newer side-by-side black model instead. Such an innocent statement when it comes to refrigerators, and yet... change one word.... :)
Thanks so much!
Re: Strong women
Date: 2005-09-13 03:12 pm (UTC)I also agree about the thing of people of faith and people of science being mutually exclusive in pop culture. Which is silly to me, because there are a lot of VERY Christian people in the lab I work at. It's not very representitive of life.
I really liked Fleur in HBP too. In fact, she was the one woman I did like. Even McG disappointed me, because she seemed to be unsure if the school would open without Dumbledore. When she was worrying about the whole teacher-murdered-the-headmaster thing, fine. But when she was taking the more "how will we get along without Albus!" bit, that bugged me. (And the matchmaking!McGonagall. I HATE that.) I also think the problem in HBP for me wasn't each individual character, but the sum of all of them. Take one, and it wouldn't have driven me nuts. Add them together and the effect is almost more amplifying than cumulative.
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Date: 2005-09-13 03:22 pm (UTC)It doesn't bother me when people don't like Molly for her personality at all. She IS a busy-body and she's very quick to leap to judgments. I like her a lot because she feels very realistic to me- she reminds me VERY much of my mother. (But I think that's why some people don't like her- she's a very accurate mother, and JKR gets right the things that chafe us as the children of mothers.) I just get annoyed when people can't stand that she's a housewife. Ah well! Fortunatelly, most people I know that don't like her don't like her for her behavior, not her career choice. :)
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Date: 2005-09-14 04:55 am (UTC)The X-Men era I read, the mid-1980s, was fantastic. (I think it was about #180-235 or so, give or take a few issues.) Helped to have brothers who were interested in it too. :-) I don't know what the series is like now.
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Date: 2005-09-16 05:54 am (UTC)Women in HP have always been mostly bad, to me. The girls of Harry Potter suck. And I don't hold it against the series, mostly because most girls in mainstream media suck.
Strong Females?
Buy Haibane Renmei. It’s an anime, but even if you think anime is lame, Haibane Renmei is good. You can buy the whole series for under 15 dollars on ebay. I tried making bios for the girls, but they mostly came out bad. I am tired, and I can’t give away anything without spoilers. Also, I am an idiot. Reki is the best, she’s tough, she’s insecure, she is a hypocrite, but she’s really good to the other Haibane. And Rakka doesn’t understand the world at all, and she doesn’t know what to do about it. Kana is awesome and she wants to fix a clock. And those are all sort of spoilers. -_- They are all realistic
I mean, it takes place in an all girl’s residence, so you can’t really have boring females, or pretty much the whole series would be boring. It’s girlie, but in the best possible way. No girlpower or sisterhood, or some such.
There are other girls too, but I tend to only like a few per series.
Alice from AmGee's Alice is pretty cool. She's angry, clever, impatient, depressed, insane, loving, curious, and she kicks ass...if you are any good at the game, naturally. But there are only 2 other females in the entire game. One of them doesn't get a speaking role. That might annoy you, I don't know.
And Lyra Belaqua. She kicks.
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Date: 2005-10-07 07:06 pm (UTC)I think she's a good character, she's managed to get over her background, and get one of the highest positions in her career.