Yo, Brits...

[lls_mutant]

The term "closet case" for someone who is determined to hide their sexuality (close enough to present day)... acceptable or a better term? (And for the record, it is Sirius, and he's angry, so offensive is perfectly acceptable and encouraged.)

Comments

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Bearing in mind, I'm a bit too young to be a contemporary of Sirius, it still sounds a bit American to me. You could try rephrasing it and say something like "Why don't you just admit you're a fucking fairy?"

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

It is Sirius saying it rather than someone saying it about Sirius, right?

I'm not sure the closet thing was around in the seventies. I can check and get back to you though.

(I like the fucking fairy idea though! ;D)

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Didn't take me long!

According to this BBC webpage, the term 'coming out' wasn't coined until 1987, and developed into 'coming out of the closet' during the eighties. Presumably there would have been some use of the term before then, as words don't pop out of nowhere, but it wasn't so widespread. (As it was popularised by a March on Washington DC, it might have taken a year or two to catch on in the UK.)

Normally I'd verify with other sources but it's the BBC, it's bound to be right. ;) Also, that page is very educational--I wasn't aware of the origins of 'fag' as a homophobic term. Yikes.

I don't know whether this is helping you much at all. I found it interesting. *g*

[snorkackcatcher]

Interesting webpage, but I'm not sure whoever wrote it got their etymology entirely right -- it's a 'h2g2' page, which is kind of the BBC's version of the Wikipedia based on the idea of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (and probably as variable in quality depending on the researcher as the Guide was supposed to be!).

In particular, I'm not really convinced of the connection between a medieval European practice and the modern American slang term 'faggot' -- the Merriam-Webster site has it down as 'etymology unknown'. Sounds like a bit of folk etymology going on there. Personally, I'd be more inclined to guess a connection with the 'fag system' in English boys' public schools (i.e. private schools, just to be confusing) in which the younger boys had to act as servants and occasionally catamites to the older boys, but that would be equally speculative.

Also, I'm fairly (although not completely) sure that 'coming out' was a term in use well before the 1987 march mentioned in the article? 1970s sounds about right for that.

Anyway, if we're talking the 1970s, I'd agree that 'fucking fairy' fits well, and the most common British terms aprt from that would probably be (nouns) 'poof', 'poofter', and (adjectives) 'bent', 'queer', with 'nancy-boy' as possible but a bit old-fashioned. Of course, this being set in the Potterverse you could always invent your own word ...

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

I've heard the idea that the origin of 'fag' is the public school thing, but I always thought that it was fairly unlikely as the 'gay' use is American in origin, not English, like the schoolboy errands one. My Oxford Dictionary of Current English gives seperate entries for fag meaning tire, exhaust etc, run errands for snr schoolboy, drudgery and cigarette, and another for the US slang term, which is says is an abbreviation of faggot meaning, inter alia, bundle of sticks. The public school meaning of 'fag' is not related to 'faggot' in any way I'm aware of. So I'm going to go with the H2G2 on this one.

I'm just a bit too young to properly remember if 'closet' was a popular term with respect to sexuality before the late eighties. I do remember the whole coming out of the closet thing being a huge deal in the papers etc when I returned to the UK from living abroad around 1988 (gave my Dad a terrible shock). Of course, the notion of secrets being hidden in the closet predates the hidden sexuality meaning by a long way. ('Skeletons in the closet' going back to at least the nineteenth century, off the top of my head.) *scratches head* It's always so hard to tell with colloqualisms.

Of course, this being set in the Potterverse you could always invent your own word ...

That really would be the bestest. :D Would also spare any further ramblings from me...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Interesting discussion altogether!

It is Sirius speaking, but as I think about it, Sirius would use whatever was popular in the seventies regardless of time period. Azkaban isn't exactly the place to catch up on your pop culture, is it?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Own word might actually be the way to go, although we'll see how creative I get. I'm not very good at making up insults in general (although homophobic type insults shouldn't be THAT hard to come up with, really).

And while it is Sirius speaking in OotP timeframe, a few minutes though says he would use whatever is popular in the 70s anyway- Azkaban isn't really the place to catch up on trends and pop culture!

Thanks!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks muchly! I will do something along those lines.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Well if you bear in mind, that fags and fagging was common at public school and in the 70s, I’m pretty sure that would be the first thing that came to mind if it was mentioned in England. And my dad still uses the term ‘fagged out’ meaning tired which probably comes from that usage. And a faggot is a bundle of sticks. Fag meaning a gay man is/was very American because it also means a cigarette which is a much more common usage amongst my aquaintances.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Not so much, no! ;D Although I'm thinking Sirius needing to update his expressions and fashion sense would make for an excellent crack!fic.

Harry: No-one goes out wearing bondage trousers and dog collars these days.
Sirius: No? What's in now then?
Harry: Well, you need baggy jeans. And perhaps a hoodie.
Remus: *thinks* Shut up, shut up, shut up