Much George R.R. Martin Fangirling

[lls_mutant]

Why I am loving A Song of Ice and Fire.

Now, before I continue, please bear in mind I'm not quite done Storm of Swords. So please don't spoil for me!

Ahem.

I sometimes think that anyone who reads this journal would think that J.K. Rowling is my only favorite author, because Harry Potter is the only fandom I'm really involved in. I love Rowling, but it's just as much that I rarely get involved in fandoms as any other reason. And although I think I actually love Martin more right now, he does not inspire fandom in me.

I don't know if it's because I have A Feast of Crows in my hot little hands already, but I don't speculate on what's going to happen in Westeros, whereas I certainly do at Hogwarts. But I think a lot of that is because I don't know Martin's rules. J.K. Rowling is, in her own way, predictable. Good characters will generally stay good. They'll generally do good things, or their mistakes don't generally result in major deaths or whatever. We know- or can pretty much predict- the rules of her magic. Her people actually follow etiquette. J.K. Rowling's heroes are generally decent people, so one can usually predict approximately how they'll react.

Martin's aren't. So many of his POV characters are not totally decent people. I mean, I would adopt Harry in a heartbeat. Arya is a nasty little snot at times who's willing to kill people by the time she's, what, eight? Left alone on a desert island, Arya would eat Harry for breakfast and pick her teeth with the bones. Which isn't to say I don't like Arya. She's just not as fundamentally decent as Harry is, and as a result, she isn't quite as predictable.

We also don't know the rules (yet) of Martin's magic, although I am positive blood and possibly rape will be involved. So yeah. Predicting becomes hard.

But anyway. Enough of that. I want to squee!

1.) Okay, why does so many people get so worked up over John/Ygritte? My suspicion is it's because there's a lot of fangirls who want John for themselves and therefore hate Ygritte solely on the basis of her sleeping with John, but I loved John/Ygritte. I didn't get emotionally invested in their relationship because, dude, I knew one of them was going to die or betray the other because this is George R.R. Martin we're talking about, and I've learned you don't get too attatched to his characters. (Although I will cry when he offs Tyrion. I just sort of automatically assume he will at some point.) But I loved the reversals in their relationship, and the sweetness of it, and I loved that Ygritte was totally kickass and shot him when she realized he was a traitor. Strong female character- WHOO!

2.) I still can't stand Cersai, but all right. He's succeeding winning me over to Jaime. I see that Cersai is a POV character in A Feast for Crows, so maybe he'll win me over to her, too, but that's going to take a lot. Jaime didn't defend Joffery, little monster that he was. And if I shipped, I'd so ship Jaime/Brienne.

3.) I have gotten to the part where Shae screws Tyrion over in his trial, and OH! I am LOVING it! I still haven't figured out if Shae loved Tyrion or not, and this, I think, is part of Martin's genius. I mean, let's say she did (and bear in mind that Shae is a commoner, not used to the game there). So, she does fall in love with Tyrion, and is willing to let the public know it. She sees past his ugliness for the man he is. And what does he do? He wants to hide her from the public. He keeps talking about marrying her off. Then he marries a child, is constantly considerate of her feelings, and worst of all, assigns Shae to be his new wife's maid! I know Tyrion assumes she sold him out for money, and maybe she totally did. But maybe he also had it coming. I love the fact that either way the outcome is the same, and we may never know the answer. (I also love the fact that I could get to the next Tyrion chapter of a chapter books later and find out.)

4.) Wow- Dany actually realized that maybe she doesn't have a clue of how to rule, and you don't just automatically know this stuff? Right on, girl! Another strong female character in literature. Dany can annoy me at times, but overall, I really, really like her.

5.) Catelyn mildly annoyed me. I didn't think she was a total bitch or anything- I just got tired of her angsting. I mean, it's understandable angsting. But one criticism I have of Martin's treatment of Catelyn was he got too repetitive in her thoughts sometimes.

6.) Still expressing my surprise that, for all this man rapes characters right and left, he hasn't raped a POV character yet. Note the keyword yet. It wouldn't surprise me if he does it at some point.

7.) In some ways, I so wish I could give this to some of the young people I know. The lack of cliches and the approach to fantasy are just brilliant. But it's such a bloody, violent, and sexually-graphic (in a way) book that I could never do that in good conscience.

Anyway, yeah. TOTALLY loving every second of it!

Comments

[deaddesire.livejournal.com]

I know I hated Jon/Ygritte because it seemed to me that he completely changed his character! His values changed when he had sex. Plus, he was a really great asexual character up until that point and there just aren't enough good asexual-like characters.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I can definitely see the asexual character point!

I think it doesn't bother me so much because Jon's so freaking young, y'know? And a virgin to boot. I thought he ended up emotionally torn up, but still in character. Interesting!

[erastes.livejournal.com]

Have to agree here. Jon's been taught in a certain way. Duty. Don't expect anything. The Black vows. He knows what they mean - but he's also a horny young man and couldn't really resist his own impulses. I don't think it changed him at all - he was doing his duty throughout "whatever is required" as Half-hand said.

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

I wile away a lot of time imagining what would happen if JKR's characters met GRRM's, and the results are vastly amusing. Not only would Arya eat Harry alive for breakfast, but Littlefinger would hand all the Slytherins asses to them on a golden platter and just about anybody in the series could give Voldemort some advice on how to be a better villain. And Ghost would eat Hedwig in one bite. ;)

And... I had some comments about the death rate, but I think I should wait until you finish this book at least. :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Does it have to do with zombies? I peeked at the end, and I suddenly realized that Catelyn- and for that matter, Beric- are ZOMBIES. This explains so much.

And ANYONE could give Voldie better advice on how to be a villian. HBP helped some, but overall, Voldie is a lame villian. But I don't read HP for the central conflict- I read it for the kids :)

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

That was definitely part of it. No, I was just going to say that just about everybody (myself included) tends to vastly overstate GRRM's habit of killing main characters, because of the dozen or so characters he's used for more than POV chapter, only one or two of them are unquestionably out of the picture (Ned being one of them). Lots of people close to the main characters die, but I don't think a chopping rate of 1-2/14 is quite the central character bloodbath people make it out to be.

Now, whether or not they're dead is another question, because Catelyn's technically dead but she manages to hang around causing trouble. (She's a lot less annoying and far more interesting dead, btw. *g*)

[snorkackcatcher]

I was just going to say that just about everybody (myself included) tends to vastly overstate GRRM's habit of killing main characters, because of the dozen or so characters he's used for more than POV chapter, only one or two of them are unquestionably out of the picture (Ned being one of them). Lots of people close to the main characters die, but I don't think a chopping rate of 1-2/14 is quite the central character bloodbath people make it out to be

Thank you -- that's pretty mcuh what I was going to say. :D I think people get thrown by the fact that he killed Ned off early (when he looked like a candidate for Series Hero) and so overlook the fact that most of the other major POV characters are still wending their merry way around Westeros or wherever they happen to be, and in several cases will presumably continue to do so until they actually do something plot-critical.

Even one POV character I thought was definitely dead is apparently still alive and being tortured according to an interview. (I'd better not say which one unless LLS wants to know!)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Theon? Is Theon being tortured? I rather hope so! (I did finish SoS btw). I don't really like Theon these days.

You know, I can see that. I guess the difference between Martin and other authors is he kills non-POV characters- or non characters- off left and right. And he does so quite graphically. I mean, let's face it, an Avada Kedavra is not a very messy death. Having your arm hacked through and then your head chopped in half because you were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time (even if it was DUMB on your part)... that's messy.

I think, too, because he did kill Ned off and Zombiefied Catelyn (Please tell me I won't have to read "my sweet boys!" again!) it makes a person fear for the characters that are POV, because he's shown early on that no one is safe. And that's pretty cool, really.

[snorkackcatcher]

Well, he didn't actually use the word 'tortured' -- something like 'made very uncomfortable' -- but that was the implication.

He's also said no more Catelyn POV chapters, so you're OK there. :) And no Varys or Littlefinger POV chapters ever, because they know too much.

You know, GRRM has made a play of this 'no-one is safe' factor in interviews AFAIR -- but I suspect that part of the reason for killing Ned off early might have been precisely to encourage readers to think that, whereas really most of the main characters stick around so that their plot arcs can be developed over the series, as you would expect.

(And that isn't even taking into account one of my personal Long Shot Wild-Ass Speculations, which is that the execution of Ned was faked up by Varys using a double! :D If the author didn't mind fanfic, that would be an ideal subject.)

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to say but *word*

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

hmm. Yeah, I appreciate many of his twists and turns. I like them when they're clever and unpredictable. But i finally gave up on the story after Robb died because for me, the ride wasn't worth the emotional investment in characters he was going to kill at whim anyway.

I think it's one of those stories I might enjoy once someone can tell me who makes it to the end. :D

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I can understand that! I've just stopped getting too invested in the characters. It makes it easier. Also explains why I'm totally rooting for Remus to croak in TDH.

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

7.) In some ways, I so wish I could give this to some of the young people I know. The lack of cliches and the approach to fantasy are just brilliant. But it's such a bloody, violent, and sexually-graphic (in a way) book that I could never do that in good conscience.

How old are "young people"? Seven? Thirteen? Seventeen?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

The one is ten. That one's definitely out.

The others are junior high. Iffy, but considering it's a church group....

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

There's plenty of bloodshed, rape and incest in the Bible. I wouldn't think that the kids would be damaged by the subjects. I'd say tell them about it, and if they're interested, point them in the direction of a bookstore.

Ten's a bit young for Martin's ASOIAF series, but at least one of the Dunk-and-Egg stories is out in graphic novel form, and he's written a book for young children called The Ice Dragon.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

True enough! I may do a little PR for Martin, here. It's just nice to have a book to be so excited about again, y'know? :)

[snorkfics.livejournal.com]

Hah. I never really liked Jon/Ygritte because of the way it short-circuited the way Jon was set up. But then Jon doesn't fascinate me that much anyway.

I'm not sure it's as cliche-free as everybody says -- the historical materials he draws on can be quite apparent -- and the real manipulators such as Littlefinger etc are a fantasy staple who don't tend to be so successful in RL.

Most of the GRRM characters would have an advantage on even terms over Harry/whichever other heroic character you want to pick simply because they come from a brutal ethos. Although give Harry his wand, or (say) Captain Kirk his ship, and they could whup anyone in Westeros without breaking sweat, so the point is that they wouldn't be on even terms. It's the difference between the backgrounds of the societies the characters come from.

I know what you mean about ASOIAF not being so fandomable -- although the tangled politics is fascinating, there are very few characters it's possible to really like or care about, and some of those get killed off (e.g. Robb or even Renly). At least Dany is promising (btw, I should warn you -- AFFC is basically half a book, some major POVs such as hers are missing and will turn up in the next book, which runs parallel timeline-wise to AFFC).

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Good point about historical material. I guess it's just free of the more common cliches. Or he does unexpected things with cliches. After all, Dany is every Mary Sue princess ever written, gone brilliantly right.

And yeah- that was actually the point I was trying to make about the HP universe vs. the Martin universe. Martin's characters are far more ruthless and far less fundamentally decent than the HP characters. And what happens when you ARE fundamentally decent, like Ned Stark? You DIE. Quickly.

Thanks for the warning about AFFC- I like Dany, and I'll miss her POV. But it's not even just a lack of caring about certain characters- I feel like Martin's told us everything we need to know. Of course, if you look at the characters I fic in HP (generally NOT Harry, Ron, or Hermione), this explains much about what I need for a fandom. :P

[erastes.livejournal.com]

I've always considered that ASOIAF is less fandomable for a few reasons:

1. that GRRM doesn't want it

2. that he writes it so TIGHT, that , in spite of the much huger world and enormous timeline that it's difficult to slide anything in. Like the pyramids - you can't slide a cigarette paper between the ancient stones

[snorkackcatcher]

Is that 'fandomable' or 'fanficcable' though? With the latter, I think reason #1 is the killer, same as with (I presume) Pern using the book characters. If it weren't for that, then on usual form you'd expect to see at the least hundreds of fics of Renly/Loras or Jaime/Cersei or Rhaegar/Lyanna or whatever.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Actually (and trust me on this) you can fic Pern. Anne McCaffery just has VERY specific rules for it- including no using her characters and no using Benden, Ruatha, or Harper Hall. But she sanctions Weyrs where zines can be distrubuted, or RP can be done over email. I actually co-wrote my first fanfic novel in Pern.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I totally agree with the tightness aspect as well. There aren't many details that are important to me that are left out. I don't have any compulsion to fic. And while the world is interesting, let's be honest- it's not (at least, as of the end of SoS) that incredibly inventive. The stories I might want to tell set in that environment don't have to be in Westeros- they could be in a world I set up on my own and could one day make money off of.

And I'm all for respecting the author's wishes on the subject, too.

YAY Martin!

[pforte.livejournal.com]

You won't like Cersei, even if you know her thoughts. *lol* I'm fond of her as a character because she is just thoroughly corrupted. I mean, having an affair with your twin brother under the eyes of the KING is definitely daring.

I agree with you on Martin's unpredictability. I'd never have expected him to kill Ned off. None of his characters is safe and I like this very much about his books. I also like his style. Have you ever read A Song for Lya? It's an excellent collection of short stories that show his talent as a writer.

Re: YAY Martin!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Good. It was bad enough he turned me around and made me like Jaime! I don't WANT to like Cersai. She's fun to hate.

I'll have to check that out- I've very much been enjoying the series so far, and one day I might even have time to read something else. Thanks for the rec!

[lovemoony4ever.livejournal.com]

Thanks for talking about these books! I picked up "A game of Thrones" when I was in London, and I just finished reading it now. I loved it! I will pick up the next two when I see them:)