On Caprica Six
Jan. 24th, 2009 08:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lls_mutantYeah, they've got little to do with it, but I wanted to show off my shiny new icon.
Okay. I rarely talk about the Cylons, because for the most part, I just accept the general Cylons as the baddies with a few individual interesting ones. Caprica Six is one of those that I have a hard time with, because it's difficult to resolve her character for me. We didn't see a lot of her transformation. (I really need to rewatch Downloaded.)
However, the woman started the miniseries by murdering a baby. And now she's all happy about being pregnant. I find it disturbing. Interesting, but disturbing. I'm very much wondering if the baby will come to term. For one, there are eight episodes left. There'd have to be a pretty big jump. And for two... Caprica, don't drink ANYTHING Ishay gives you. Seriously. And she's the one who really was the key to nuking Caprica. Of course, she also "killed" Boomer to keep her from killing Hera, and she really does seem to be... different, now.
I am convinced that Ellen will be back. Alive and in corporal form. And that leaves me with questions.
1.) Once Ellen returns, what happens to Caprica and Tigh? I kind of refuse to call it Caprica/Tigh, because although they've had a physical relationship, I hesitate to call it a romantic relationship.
2.) How is Ellen going to react to the baby?
3.) I assume that Tigh and Ellen will be together. I am also making the assumption that there will not be any Caprica/Tigh/Ellen triangle, although I would laugh my ass off if that was the case.
4.) Will Baltar and Caprica get back together? Please? I like Baltar/Six. Six is the only one who gets Baltar, even when he himself doesn't, or won't. I mean, my truest pairing is Baltar/himself, but after that, Baltar/Six, and specifically Caprica Six.
5.) That said, I'm assuming if you clicked the link you saw the infamous frak chart, which has Gaeta linked to Caprica Six. I'm not sure if I'm disturbed by that or not.
On the one hand, I -think- it's probably a relic of when the webisodes were originally set up with a Six. There was an interview that Juliani did after they'd just shot 4.18 that said the writers had found a way to work the whisper of doom back into the plot. Which means either a.) they had the basic structure of the webisodes then, or b.) they at least knew about the Gaeta/Cylon on New Caprica part and that it was going to be a Six. I can see where they might have wanted to resolve it and realized they didn't have time, but it was borderline. And someone said- hey! Webisodes! And the chart was made before everything was done, I'm sure. So it may be that they knew Gaeta was going to sleep with a Six (turned Eight), and just put that on.
Also, JE said in the webisode commentary that if they'd gotten Narcho, the Gaeta/Narcho relationship would have continued, but since it was Hoshi, they had to split. I'd been assuming pre-SaGN that it was because Hoshi ended up on team Adama and Gaeta mutinied, and you had to explain why that was the case- why they didn't do the same thing. And the way they ended it was very... well, I thought Gaeta still very much cared for Hoshi, but was afraid of dragging him down. That's how it came out, anyway. But I also assumed that Hoshi was likely to die at some point. Now that it looks like Hoshi's full-time Dee (and maybe even full-time Gaeta after this little mutiny), I'm much more confident he will live. And for some reason the idea occurred to me that perhaps the reason it couldn't continue is that Hoshi lives, and Gaeta gets together with Caprica Six at the end, whereas Narcho dies and you don't have to explain what happened to Gaeta's boyfriend.
I don't particularly like the idea of Gaeta/Caprica Six. For one, I want Caprica Six to get back with Baltar, darn it. I really do. But also, with the way Gaeta is going, I can't believe Gaeta/any Cylon pairing. Ever. I just don't think he could ever trust a Cylon again. He might be talked out of killing them, but once Gaeta decides to carry a grudge, he carries it but good. (Also, if they knew he got together with Caprica in the end, setting him up with a Six in the webisodes? I find it impossible to believe that anyone who'd ever been that betrayed could hook up with a carbon copy of the person who betrayed them.)
Meh. I still think Gaeta's going to die, but hubby's theory is he'll be spared and kicked off the Galactica. Which gave rise to a scene I want, where Hoshi comes to Adama and hands in his pins, and quietly says he's going with Gaeta, because it's the end of the world and he's going to put this back together if it kills him. And then a shot later of Adama seeing them both in civilian clothes, getting on a Raptor together. I won't get that, but it would be awesome.
So. Thoughts on any of the five questions? Gleeful speculation?
Okay. I rarely talk about the Cylons, because for the most part, I just accept the general Cylons as the baddies with a few individual interesting ones. Caprica Six is one of those that I have a hard time with, because it's difficult to resolve her character for me. We didn't see a lot of her transformation. (I really need to rewatch Downloaded.)
However, the woman started the miniseries by murdering a baby. And now she's all happy about being pregnant. I find it disturbing. Interesting, but disturbing. I'm very much wondering if the baby will come to term. For one, there are eight episodes left. There'd have to be a pretty big jump. And for two... Caprica, don't drink ANYTHING Ishay gives you. Seriously. And she's the one who really was the key to nuking Caprica. Of course, she also "killed" Boomer to keep her from killing Hera, and she really does seem to be... different, now.
I am convinced that Ellen will be back. Alive and in corporal form. And that leaves me with questions.
1.) Once Ellen returns, what happens to Caprica and Tigh? I kind of refuse to call it Caprica/Tigh, because although they've had a physical relationship, I hesitate to call it a romantic relationship.
2.) How is Ellen going to react to the baby?
3.) I assume that Tigh and Ellen will be together. I am also making the assumption that there will not be any Caprica/Tigh/Ellen triangle, although I would laugh my ass off if that was the case.
4.) Will Baltar and Caprica get back together? Please? I like Baltar/Six. Six is the only one who gets Baltar, even when he himself doesn't, or won't. I mean, my truest pairing is Baltar/himself, but after that, Baltar/Six, and specifically Caprica Six.
5.) That said, I'm assuming if you clicked the link you saw the infamous frak chart, which has Gaeta linked to Caprica Six. I'm not sure if I'm disturbed by that or not.
On the one hand, I -think- it's probably a relic of when the webisodes were originally set up with a Six. There was an interview that Juliani did after they'd just shot 4.18 that said the writers had found a way to work the whisper of doom back into the plot. Which means either a.) they had the basic structure of the webisodes then, or b.) they at least knew about the Gaeta/Cylon on New Caprica part and that it was going to be a Six. I can see where they might have wanted to resolve it and realized they didn't have time, but it was borderline. And someone said- hey! Webisodes! And the chart was made before everything was done, I'm sure. So it may be that they knew Gaeta was going to sleep with a Six (turned Eight), and just put that on.
Also, JE said in the webisode commentary that if they'd gotten Narcho, the Gaeta/Narcho relationship would have continued, but since it was Hoshi, they had to split. I'd been assuming pre-SaGN that it was because Hoshi ended up on team Adama and Gaeta mutinied, and you had to explain why that was the case- why they didn't do the same thing. And the way they ended it was very... well, I thought Gaeta still very much cared for Hoshi, but was afraid of dragging him down. That's how it came out, anyway. But I also assumed that Hoshi was likely to die at some point. Now that it looks like Hoshi's full-time Dee (and maybe even full-time Gaeta after this little mutiny), I'm much more confident he will live. And for some reason the idea occurred to me that perhaps the reason it couldn't continue is that Hoshi lives, and Gaeta gets together with Caprica Six at the end, whereas Narcho dies and you don't have to explain what happened to Gaeta's boyfriend.
I don't particularly like the idea of Gaeta/Caprica Six. For one, I want Caprica Six to get back with Baltar, darn it. I really do. But also, with the way Gaeta is going, I can't believe Gaeta/any Cylon pairing. Ever. I just don't think he could ever trust a Cylon again. He might be talked out of killing them, but once Gaeta decides to carry a grudge, he carries it but good. (Also, if they knew he got together with Caprica in the end, setting him up with a Six in the webisodes? I find it impossible to believe that anyone who'd ever been that betrayed could hook up with a carbon copy of the person who betrayed them.)
Meh. I still think Gaeta's going to die, but hubby's theory is he'll be spared and kicked off the Galactica. Which gave rise to a scene I want, where Hoshi comes to Adama and hands in his pins, and quietly says he's going with Gaeta, because it's the end of the world and he's going to put this back together if it kills him. And then a shot later of Adama seeing them both in civilian clothes, getting on a Raptor together. I won't get that, but it would be awesome.
So. Thoughts on any of the five questions? Gleeful speculation?
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no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 02:14 am (UTC)On the one hand, I -think- it's probably a relic of when the webisodes were originally set up with a Six.
That's my thinking too. The books were verrry likely put together and published before the webisodes were ever finalised, so they went with what the earliset draft of the webisodes said.
Or they could've forgot to put another line from Baltar to Gaeta to imply a Gaeta/baltar/Six threeway. What happens in New Caprica stays in New Caprica, I guess...
Which gave rise to a scene I want, where Hoshi comes to Adama and hands in his pins, and quietly says he's going with Gaeta, because it's the end of the world and he's going to put this back together if it kills him. And then a shot later of Adama seeing them both in civilian clothes, getting on a Raptor together
WANT. D:
no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 07:37 pm (UTC)I'm hoping they aren't really going there, but I wouldn't have believed Tigh/Six, either, so there you go.
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Date: 2009-01-25 09:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 09:15 pm (UTC)First of all, I'm not sure I agree with his assessment about the Cylon fetus actually being what we're seeing. Because I can't make it out too well myself :) I've seen ultrasounds, and that one doesn't look all that different.
Second, I've seen VERY high tech ultrasounds of a baby at two months, and it looks a little more than a blob. It might not be that Cylon fetuses develop faster; it might be that RTF ultrasound technology is more sophisticated than ours. That doesn't seem like too big a leap to me, given that, y'know, they have space ships.
Finally, pregnancy and the media are always tricky things. I NEVER trust entertainment to get it right on pregnancy. It might just be they used a further advanced ultrasound so there was something for the audience to look at.
I really hope Tigh is the father, because come on. TWO retconned babies in the space of nine episodes? Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.
(Although the thought has occurred to me that Gaeta is secretly the father.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 09:48 pm (UTC)(Although the thought has occurred to me that Gaeta is secretly the father.)
Whoa. ...well, makes the Frak Tree work, but jeez, when did he find the time? ... the baby in the Opera House visions does have curly hair, doesn't she? Maybe it's not Hera like everyone thinks... oooooh, this is fun to ponder...
no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 09:56 pm (UTC)Pregnancy is one of those things that Hollywood likes to work magic on. (I know this is Vancouver, but you get my drift.) There were some issues I had with Athena's pregnancy, too. Like she showed morning sickness WAY too early. And I seem to think something about her miscarriage was off, and then Hera was born WAY premature, and shouldn't have even looked quite like she did, I think. I forget.
It's very possible that Baltar is the father, I suppose. But I guess the biggest reason I'm hoping he's not is two mistaken paternities this close together is nauseating. (And Gaeta would be SUCH a retcon I don't think I could take it without laughing.)
Oh, also? Cottle would have told them the due date in there and how far along the baby was. If it was several months ahead like this guy is proposing, Tigh would have caught on.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-25 09:49 am (UTC)It is still boggling to me that AJ is saying he shot ep18 and Gaeta is survives until that point. I keep wondering if it's a lie to cover up spoilers of Gaeta's death. I'm sure that the rebellion will rise up and get put down fairly quickly, maybe over the next two episodes. That only takes us to ep14 (or ep16 counting Razor). It'll be very interesting to see what Gaeta's role is if he survives the mutiny.
I wonder if Gaeta will spend some time in the Brig, effectively following Baltars path again. I kind of like the idea that Adama might imprison Gaeta for a while then come to realise that they need him for navigation if they are ever going to find a new home. I don't really want Gaeta to have a predictable redemption arc, where he does something heroic to make up for his mutiny. I'd love it if Adama just realised that they need Gaeta and he never really gave him any credit or regard for his work in the past.
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Date: 2009-01-25 07:43 pm (UTC)I can't, either, but if I'd seen this pre-season 4 I would have said the same thing about Tigh and Six. But with the way they've taken his character... if he does get together with Caprica Six, I'm really, REALLY going to be questioning whoever came up with the Eight plotline's sanity.
That only takes us to ep14 (or ep16 counting Razor). It'll be very interesting to see what Gaeta's role is if he survives the mutiny.
A couple, unspoiled theories:
1.) My husband's theory is that Gaeta will get court marshalled and then sentenced to death, but right before he's meant to execute him Adama will give one of his Big Speeches (complete with slow claps) about forgiveness, and he'll spare Gaeta's life. However, Gaeta will be out of the military and leave Galactica. (If this happens, I want to see Hoshi leave the military too, and a shot of Adama seeing the two of them in civilian clothes and getting onto a Raptor.)
2.) We've joked about it, but maybe it's true. Maybe Felix WILL die, and Baltar will get a head!Felix. It's pretty obvious he's being drawn back into Felix's storyline, and he's got a lot of guilt there. And I think someone somewhere said that Baltar would be getting other guides. (Although it might have been Head!Six in the deleted scene.) Why NOT a head!Felix?
I totally agree that I don't want to see Gaeta have a predictable redemption arc. But I don't think we will, either.
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Date: 2009-01-25 07:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-28 03:52 am (UTC)Uhm...you're not already? ;-P
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Date: 2009-01-25 11:32 am (UTC)It really is. It was creepy when she talked about how the Cylons had tried to have children before, saying "It's been tried. Believe me" or such, with that bland smile. It's this really maternal, normal scene of parenthood and I couldn't get the memory of "The Farm" out of my head. It was a bit disturbing how Tigh was all good-natured about his child being a Cylon savior as well.
I'm not convinced that Gaeta is going to die. It's likely but I'm not convinced. I'll easily believe that he survives up until 4.18. Frankly, BSG doesn't have that many secondary characters left. They're even giving Hot Dog lines now, and wasn't Narcho in the teaser for next week? That's how bad they're off. I've noticed how the way they handle the camera in the CIC has changed because they don't have random characters anymore they can show having neutral reactions (Gaeta was great for that; he always got the "and that's what the CIC thinks" shots). Gaeta not being dead yet and AJ turning out to be a good actor is a godsend for them. If they kill him off early, they have a problem. They have so many conflicts to resolve with the rest of the cast, they can't go and introduce any of them to a new plotty story at that point. They really need characters like Gaeta. You can only do so much with Hot Dog, Hoshi or Narcho because nobody knows who they are.
Now, the way they handle Gaeta shows me that the writers are fully aware of Gaeta's POV in this. They know the audience essentially regards him as a good guy (they mentioned "Collaborators" in 4.12 and Gaeta's function in that episode was expressedly... RDM called him "that guy everybody knows is a good guy", I believe). You can't just go and execute the good guy. Not before having him do a lot of things that make him be not the good guy anymore. He's an amputee. He has the audience's sympathy. Since AJ says Gaeta is not a bad guy, but the moral center of the show, keeping true to himself... I strongly doubt Gaeta is going to do anything really bad. And that means maybe he won't die. Execution is very unlikely especially, methinks; it would make Adama look really bad.
I propose Gaeta and Adama will make up in the end. There'll be a rebellion and they'll be on different sides, and then something will happen and they'll combine forces, and they'll rediscover their respect for each other. Yeah, I don't think he'll die. :)
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Date: 2009-01-25 07:49 pm (UTC)And you're right about execution making Adama look bad. Although the way people on some forums are screaming for Gaeta's blood... of course, Starbuck putting a bullet in his head wouldn't be met with much resistance, apparently.
I agree that Gaeta isn't going to go TOO far into true darkness. Heck, the previews we saw way back had him arguing with Zarek, trying to rein Zarek back in. That right there says there's something redeeming that Gaeta's up to (although the same people calling for his death will undoubtedly start calling him a pussy when that happens).
Excellent point about the minor characters, too. They've had to step Hoshi up for precisely that reason. I have a feeling if the audience had known who he was a bit better, Hoshi might have been the one to commit suicide. But it wouldn't have had the same impact at all.
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Date: 2009-01-26 11:14 am (UTC)What would Adama get out of executing Gaeta? I don't think it would work as a deterant against mutiny. Everyone is suicidal anyway. Plus, Gaeta isn't one lone nutjob. He represents a large portion of the military crew and civilians. Personally, I just think Adama is going to look like a brute if he puts a crippled soldier in front of a firing squad, especially since the cylon officer that maimed him got off scot free.
Still Gaeta can't play much of a role in the Brig either. I like to think with this need to find a new home he'll be kept alive for his Nav skills.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-26 01:01 pm (UTC)I'm really dying to see how this ends up. I can envision several different endings for Gaeta, very few of them pretty. I'd like to see him kept alive, but I'm really wondering exactly how they're going to handle it.
Can't they just all be released out on DVD NOW? (Then we wouldn't have to watch the Lycans, either.)
reply take 2
Date: 2009-01-25 07:28 pm (UTC)In my fanon, Six and Baltar get back together and raise the baby as their own. And he (I get the feeling it's a boy) will have a totally badass name, like Prometheus. :D
I thought Gaeta still very much cared for Hoshi, but was afraid of dragging him down.
That was my read too. And the "if this doesn't work... you have a bright future, Louis" I read as "if this blows up in my face, which it likely will, you're going to have the be the navigator." Something like it.
Re: reply take 2
Date: 2009-01-25 07:53 pm (UTC)It wouldn't surprise me if CANON has Six and Baltar raising the kid. (I want them to, anyway :) )
Yeah. It was very much "go, be happy, have a good, long life if I die." And the way he said it- he was staring at Hoshi's face the whole time, like it was the last time he was going to see him, or at least see him looking at him like that.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-27 11:47 am (UTC)How interesting that we were both thinking about Cylons today. I just wrote a superlong post which included some thoughts on Caprica Six too. Gosh, I have to kinda skim over possible spoilers in this post but I do want to respond because your questions are interesting. Sorry if I miss something, though.
1. I fear Tigh will drop Caprica. He just found out that Ellen is his love like through ages. And she's a Final fiver like him. And with a plan. I think he loves the baby, or is trying, to but him and Ellen have huge amounts of unfinished business to at least talk about. Like how did she help them all be reborn?
I can't forget, either that Saul kept seeing Caprica as Ellen. That's partly why they hooked up. Maybe Caprica is a version of Ellen? Maybe a model pattern after her? Maybe Caprica is carrying a baby that will be a version of Ellen (weird but someone put that theory out there). Maybe this was all part of Ellen's plan. Whatever it is, Ellen is big news when and if she comes back.
2. I think that past!Cylon Ellen will be very intereseted in the baby. I think all the Cylons will be. That's their future right there.
3. Threesome? Hee! Former unaware Ellen would be down with that. :-) But past!Cylon Ellen? I think she's got bigger fish to fry.
4. I liked Baltar/Head!Six. Where is Head!Six? But Baltar dropped Caprica off in jail while she was still smelling his pen and in love with him. Gosh, Baltar doesn't treat his lovers well. I don't know if he deserves to be with her now. But there is the opera house prophecy. That can't be ignored. I still think somehow it's those two and Hera in the end.
5. The frak tree! Ah. The only piece of spoilery thing that I really, really want to see and won't let myself. Allowing myself one spoiler would be a slippery slope. That said, I knew about Gaeta/Six on it before reading this (I don't consider it spoilery) and I think it's an old version from the webisodes as you describe. For a few minutes last week, I thought that Gaeta might be Nicky's father! But I don't think that Gaeta is getting anymore sex this season, past or present. He's got so much to do. He's kissed an Eight and remembered their sexual relationship. (For me any hint at sex or possible sex, even a simple kiss warrent the "/" it means people are hooking up or have. So yeah, conceiving a baby counts for me. :-)) That didn't go well. He's been with Hoshi, but who knows if they are still together? I hope so. If my boy gets any cuddles, it will be from Hoshi, I hope. But a new person too? And a Six when he's feeling so hateful to Cylons? I can't see it so I don't think so.
If Gaeta dies, sigh, I just hope it's not alone. I was so counting on Dee to be there for him. Now . . . Adama should hold his hand. Or Hoshi. Someone. I do have a version in my head where Gaeta is all set to die and Hoshi takes that bullet for him. Gah, my heart. Poor Hoshi. But then Gaeta loses his bitterness because someone loved him enough to die for him. Awww, them. :-)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-28 03:44 am (UTC)I agree that Baltar and Caprica need to get back together. I'm not understanding how they're completely oblivious to each other right now. I seem to remember it being Epic True Love for Caprica.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-28 03:46 am (UTC)Hoshi comes to Adama and hands in his pins, and quietly says he's going with Gaeta, because it's the end of the world and he's going to put this back together if it kills him. And then a shot later of Adama seeing them both in civilian clothes, getting on a Raptor together.
Oh my goodness. That is the most beautiful thing. Who sez you have writer's block?!