lls_mutant

Dorothy L. Sayers, who is queen of the genre said — and then broke her own rule, but said — that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other people’s motives. That's true; it is a very useful trick. I've used that on Percy and I’ve used that to a degree on Tonks in this book, as a red herring.

Oh, I hope so. Please let there be something more interesting going on with Tonks than romance.

And it does please me that it was supposed to come out of nowhere (that's exactly what she's saying). Hello, R/T shippers, are you listening? JKR fell off her chair when she read that somebody had already put these two together!

Also, notice that JKR brought it up, not the interviewers? Kind of sounds like she's drawing attention to her own red herring, whatever it may be.

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That's what has me baffled. I am REALLY hoping there's something else going on here, but I'm wondering what she meant as the red herring.

On the one hand, you can read it as the romance is the red herring for something else. Maybe that that's not really Tonks (although she manages to get her pink hair back at the end, so...) On the other hand (and I HATE this hand), you can read it as explanations of survivor's guilt and worry over the war were meant to cover up that she was really having romantic feelings for Lupin. And UGH!!!!

I was really surprised that she brought it up herself! It was also an interesting transition- the line before it was He was attracted to it, but the reality of what it meant was way too much to handle. I'm wondering if Tonks/Lupin WON'T work because Lupin is right and he is a werewolf? (I can't really see where that fits with her theme, but I'd love that more.)

I'm just really, really hoping she won't sink R/S in the interview. R/T I can get around. A direct R/S sinking might take out all the inspiration I just got. :P (For AiL, anyway.)

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Yeah, it does sound like she's saying Tonks is identical to Percy, in that ALL her strange behaviour can be chalked up to romance.

I just don't see how that fits with the Sayers' quote, because she's doing the exact opposite of what Sayers said. She's using "other motives" to camouflage romance, not using romance to camouflage "other motives". Of course, the latter is infinitely more interesting from a storytelling (and reading) standpoint. If romance is all the reason there is, there's no place to go from there, no speculation. That's precisely why good mystery writers use that trick, because romance is the simple, obvious, rather dull explanation for a person's behaviour, whereas hidden "other motives" are more complex.

On a completely different note, I was really disappointed in her comments about Sirius, but it merely proves my suspicion that she never bothered to characterize him very well in the first place. Well enough to serve her purpose, but no more. She really hasn't thought him through any further than "reckless and immature", has she?

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She really hasn't. I'm okay with him laughing, because I do think it fits Sirius. -I- think he has a very keen sense of the ridiculous, and a rather ironic sense of humor. (Whether she agrees with me on that or not is up for debate!) Which also makes me think he was meant to be a very minor character- and makes me wonder about the fate of Lupin in the next book. (Although it almost does sound like she might intend for them to have kids. Ewwww. I'm sorry, but I can't quite get to that one.)

I thought the same thing about the Sayers' quote. Both times you were supposed to think they were up to something fishy, and it ended up they were just in love. It worked really, really well with Percy, I thought, because I could see where she built up the ambition and the darkness in Percy. And you basically thought Percy was doing what Ginny was doing.

I couldn't see the point with Tonks. Making her a red herring for... what? The grieving for Sirius cover for romance? That seems kind of silly- especially since Tonks could do both. (and in fact, I liked the red herring better than the truth!) Why bother? (Heh. Maybe the whole thing is a huge red herring for Remus/Sirius. But I seriously doubt it.)

The funny thing is she's almost got another one set up, with the whole fan theory of Snape was in love with Lily. Maybe that IS right- after Tonks/Lupin I wouldn't be terribly surprised. (And given that she was shocked people shipped Tonks and Remus. If you're not going to ship Remus with a guy or an underaged girl, who else is there to ship him with???????? But my point is maybe she doesn't realize there are people that think Snape was in love with Lily.) I'm now wondering how that theory will go.

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I couldn't see the point with Tonks. Making her a red herring for... what? The grieving for Sirius cover for romance?

Well, I would guess that what JKR was doing was writing Tonks deliberately out of character (<-- yes, I just typed that, and I'll personally kick anybody who says it's not possible) so that in scenes such as meeting Harry in the corridor, people suspect that she's Imperius'd or something like that. No subtle red herrings; she was deliberately writing something to be misinterpreted.

As for the part about grieving over Sirius -- that's just careless storytelling. It should have been an important theme in the book. But I get the impression that because Sirius' story isn't finished, JKR didn't think that any more grief was required than a few fleeting thoughts from Harry and the meaningless and never-again-mentioned lip service to 'survivor's guilt'. If that is the case, it's pretty clumsy; we shouldn't ever suspect that the author knows something the characters don't.

I wouldn't be surprised if she did sink R/S in the interview. "Oh, they were very good friends, that's all." She does seem annoyed when people misinterpret her 'hints'. People will go batshit crazy if it happens (both gloating and shrieking), and she'll probably regret saying anything (or maybe she already does, since the interview took place on Saturday, didn't it?). And I wouldn't be surprised if one of the interviewers brought it up hoping for it to be trounced, especially considering the Mugglenet folks' opinions on fandom 'ships and slash. We'll see. :)

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Yeah. I'm very, very happy with the overall plot of HBP, but I'm getting more and more disappointed with the smaller characters. I would have liked to see a bit more grieving for Sirius too- especially from Harry. But I guess we got Harry's grief at the end of OotP. What REALLY bothers me is Tonks grieving Sirius IS realistic, and if that's a red herring to cover for sappy romance... ick.

(And I agree fully that Tonks was written OOC. I've been having an argument with someone on FAP about whether or not a writer can writer their own characters OOC. And for evidence- see Vadar's NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! in Revenge of the Sith!)

I am hoping she won't actually sink the ship, because I'd like it to stay as it is. But I wouldn't be surprised about the interviewers, either. Actually, I thought that was where they were headed when they started mentioning the 'political' slant on the sites in interviews.

That's always been something that bugs me about Mugglenet. (And after the comments here about Harry/Hermione shippers, I'm even more dubious. I agree that H/Hr never really had a shot, but I thought that the way he mocked them to JKR was very rude.) I don't like their anti-slash policy. I can understand not wanting to promote cross-generational ships because you get into underaged issues, but it bothers me that reasonable ships like Remus/Sirius, Remus/Bill (which no canon evidence for, but who cares?) or Crabbe/Goyle have been Those-We-Do-Not-Speak-Of. I was reading an essay on Legilimency over there, and the author slipped in such a nasty little R/S comment... it really made my skin crawl. As I've said, we might get sunk, but I REFUSE to apologize- ever- for liking this ship. That's why the comments about H/Hr shippers bothered me. Sure, I don't agree with them at all. But a.) I don't argue with them cause kidlet shipping bores me, and b.) I don't think they should be made to feel guilty because they saw something that wasn't there. So what if they did? I used to wonder about it, but now that I'm having my own objections to how JKR is portraying love, I can understand the devotion some H/Hr shippers have to their ship.

Friday. ::Sigh::

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I've been having an argument with someone on FAP about whether or not a writer can writer their own characters OOC. And for evidence- see Vadar's NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! in Revenge of the Sith!

Better yet, watch the director's/writers' commentary on The Two Towers DVD. The writers discuss, a few times, scenes that they wrote knowing full well Eowyn was significantly out-of-character -- they even use those words, I think. But they kept those bits in the movie because the scene was important for other reasons, and the OOC character traits were a minor crime compared to the plot/action/background that was conveyed.

It's not just something that happens when a writer is careless (though lord knows that happens a lot). It's something that writers do on purpose, to prove a point. And in light of JKR's comments about the red herring, I think it was completely on purpose. (That doesn't mean it was done well -- it wasn't -- but it is reassuring that it was intentional.)

I used to wonder about it, but now that I'm having my own objections to how JKR is portraying love

I agree. I'm not entirely on board with JKR's themes -- I read for the story and adventure -- and I figure if I can deal with those flashing neon lights telling us the Themes, I can deal with details that don't seem fit (like the complete and entire characterisation of Peter Pettigrew, who is never -- in JKR's writing -- shown as a boy or man any person with half a brain would trust with his life).

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I've never actually watched the commentary. I ought to, one of these days. And yeah- sometimes you DO have to go OOC as the minor sin. No one's writing is perfect!!!! That includes everyone from the "greats" like Mark Twain and Ayn Rand and Tolsty and JKR, right down to us measley unpublished fan writers, that of course could know NOTHING about writing because we aren't published.

It is reassuring that what she did is intentional. I still don't like it- especially the sappy nature of it- but that's my problem to suck up and deal with. Like you said, I'm not completely on board with a lot of her themes, and I read her work with my own themes in mind. (On the bright side, this gives me a lot of ideas for the fantasy series churning in my own head!)

I was very, very disappointed with Peter in this book- I agree there. It's a small disappointment because he still didn't have a lot of page time, but as he's written I can't see WHY anyone would have ever liked him. I'll keep the fandom version (or the good ones!) of Peter, thanks! I've seen much more complex versions of Peter that I find far more believable than the wretch hiding behind Snape's doors. (Oh, and as for your predictions, I've already spotted at least one Snape/Pettigrew fic, and the community

gauntcest has been opened.

I did up my odds on Remus dying in canon, however. On the one hand, he has a love interest, which might protect him. On the other, my happy ending for Remus was some acceptance into society and getting the DADA job back. Now that Bill has also been infected to an extent, Remus has lost his "show how society can slowly accept me!" place, and given he was pretty much a dead man walking emotionally in HBP.... And Snape knows he's a spy. Actually, with HBP it was the first time I almost wished poor Remus would just get to die and rest, because what he must be going through is absolutely terrible. I'm also wondering if there's a darker side to Remus (please keep reading) that we'll actually see in canon. He sort of hints at it when corrects Harry about his "furry little problem." (Which I was really glad. Werewolves, in wolf form, ARE dangerous.)

Anyway, rambling is fun.

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I did up my odds on Remus dying in canon, however.

Me, too. *sigh* From what we learned about werewolves in HBP, a happily-ever-after for Remus is pretty difficult with the English wizarding world, and he's in a heck of a lot more danger than anybody suspected. And he really is falling apart. (Not that his bloody girlfriend seemed to notice. "Oh, his entire world has just come crashing down around him, great time to jump on him and whine about how wrong he was!")

As for his dark side -- I think it should be there, because of what happened at the end of PoA with him being ready to calmly, coldly, dispassionately kill Peter. But I wonder where it would lead?

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Heh. That's one of the biggest reasons I hated Tonks/Remus. And I've found Tonks/Remus shippers that feel the same way. I kind of feel bad for them. Tonks/Remus IS a logical ship in that they're the characters presented that go together in certain ways... to have the character you liked in OotP act SO inconsiderately towards the man she's supposedly in love with... I'd be annoyed even if I did ship R/T.

I agree it should be there- I've always thought it was. Remus is manipulative, and he's definitely able to be cold-blooded. And one of the things that ALWAYS glared out to me is Hermione getting all indignant and saying "What's she got against werewolves, anyway?" While I agree that Lupin is a good person, he's still dangerous- as he proved in PoA. I understood Sirius just sort of grinning indulgently- it fits with how I've always pictured Sirius. But I was SO glad Remus laughed at that notion in HBP. I have no idea where she's going to go with it (or if she is), but it really seems like Remus's darker side should come out in Book 7. Not that I think he's evil, but so far he's been overtly portrayed as almost saintly- you have to look twice to see the flaws.

It also makes me wonder what he did during the first war to make both James and Sirius suspect him so harshly that they'd turn to Pettigrew. I've always felt there was something there... something that REMUS did as much as Peter, but I'm wondering if we'll find out.

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I agree it should be there- I've always thought it was. Remus is manipulative, and he's definitely able to be cold-blooded.

And he like to people who care for him, and he can be very careless, he doesn't realise that killing Peter means killing Sirius' proof of innocence, he puts other people in danger, he knows he's dangerous, ~~he gives into a clingy and pathetic young woman simply because he feels sorry for her~~, he drops out of Harry's life twice (three times, if we count 1981) without so much as a letter...I love him SO much! *g*

Whatever else Jo does with her characters, you gotta give her props for writing such a realistically flawed character in Remus, even if she did do it on accident.

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Lies. I meant, "He lies to people who care for him."

Proof comment before clicky post comment!

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Oh yeah. Remus is a total gift, even if she doesn't quite realize it. (Obviously she doesn't realize what she created in Sirius!) He's such a bastard in a sweet sort of way. :) (Goes well with his badly behaved rabbit, er, dog.) I love Harry dearly (and was NOT disappointed much at all by Harry this round- and he is FINALLY going to go see his parents' graves...), but the minor characters are just so compelling....

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Oh, don't even get me started on Jo's characterisation of Sirius. Every time she opens her mouth about him, I cringe. She always says, "Well, he acts like that because he's unstable and unhinged and immature." But what she's really saying is, "He's unstable and unhinged and immature because my plot wouldn't work if he had a consistent character." Kind of annoying.

I was not disappointed by Harry at all, either. He's such a cutie (well, when he's not going on about the monster in his...er...'stomach'). I actually want him to win! :)

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It is annoying. On the other hand, it's workable in fics. Of course, maybe if I wrote post-Azkaban more often, I'd find it harder...

I want Harry to win, too :) I like him- he's such a realistic, confused hero. I just don't like writing him in fanfic because I feel like he's JKR's territory. I'll need him for Secret Keepers, but other than that... and I have no complaints about how she treats Harry. (I always rather liked H/G, although I could have happily gone for Lone Hero, too. I just wish we'd seen more of their conversations!) Just her minor characters. ::mutters about the lack of McG.:: Although at least now we know McG knew Neville's grandmother quite well, which lends itself well to your older witches fic!

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On the other hand also notice the question came right after some explenation about the Black family? Sirius and Regulus especially. Probably nothing, but we can dream, can't we?

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Heh. I liked it too, right after the line about being attracted and not knowing what one was getting into. I do wonder what made her insert that right then. Was it Blacks? The quote? She wanted to know our reaction and that was the first chance she got? It was quite a ways off from the shipping conversation, so... Hmmm.

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midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com

Just a big "yeah that!" to what ignipes said. I found it very interesting how she made that point about red herrings and camouflage.

I'm still digesting what she said about Sirius, but it doesn't change a thing about how I've perceived him. *loves Sirius*

On one the links I followed from the Snitch, someone had a theory that Tonks' appearance very much mirrored Draco's, and they feel that Tonks may either be a spy, or even acting under imperius or something like Madam Rosmerta was. Also, she turned up near the Room of Requirements that day... Not saying I believe it, but it's an interesting comparison - Tonks and Draco. Whatever it turns out to be, I'm thinking that there's a bit more to it than what's on the surface. I'll remain sceptical until I've got proof at any rate.

I don't mind Tonks having romantic feelings for Remus that were spurned at first - I can't honestly blame her for being attracted to him - we all are, a little, aren't we? (As ignipes has pointed out in the past!) So if anything, I'm glad there was an emphasis of sorts on unrequited love. I still don't believe that R/S is sunk - I'd rather it remain ambiguous, so I'm hoping that questions about it don't come up. She was rather harsh (though kindly so) with the H/Hr shippers, but really - there were HUGE clues that pointed to R/Hr and even on a lesser extent, H/G.

And R/T did come out of the blue - she didn't expect people to guess it from any clues she left, and frankly I prefer it that way. As to what happens between them in the future, I'll look forward to seeing how she goes about it, and then, of course, tearing it down a bit to make way for post-series Sirius comes back fics! *g*

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Heh. I'd gotten as much as what she said about Sirius already- I just wish she'd said more! I DID wonder about the Cheering Charm, but....

She sort of eluded to Lupin there in that too, about Remus not being as patronizing towards Peter as the others were. Hmm.

I don't believe R/S has sunk, either. I'm hoping we make it through this interview. If we do, I think we'll be okay. I don't think (I hope) she isn't going to answer that on her website, and right now it's pretty ambiguous. There's only two things that worry me: the interview cut off right after the Lupin/Tonks conversation (was it done?), and the very valid question of "why didn't Sirius leave Remus anything in hiw will?" might come up, and she might decide to torpedo then.

I'm hoping there's more to Tonks, but I'm less and less convinced that there is. It sounds like everything was supposed to be this huge red herring for how much she loves Remus. Ick.

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To be fair though, multi-coloured werewolf cubs is SUCH a sweet idea...

I hope she doesn't sink the ship. I'm sort of half hoping/half dreading whatever she says about it, if she says anything. So far it's looking quite hopeful though, so I ain't complainin'! I thought her answers regarding Sirius was very interesting though. This is a really interesting interview fullstop, I'm so happy she let these guys do it. They're asking all the right questions.

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Actually, I hate the idea of werewolf cubs :) wolf cubs, fine. No werewolves though! :)

I hope she doesn't, either. I hope they've left the subject for good. I kind of suspect they may have, given that they cut the interview off there (it must have seemed like a good place for a natural break), but we'll see! The rest of it- aside from the shipping (which, aside from R/S I don't care about) is awesome :)

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Yeah, but they'd be fluffy and multi-coloured and... and... and... OOOH! I know! If not werewolf Cubs then puffskiens! Multi-coloured Pygmi-Puffs! I've found my new OOTP of choice! Tonks/Pygmi-Puffs so we can have little baby mulci-coloured Pygmi-Puffs! Yes!

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Okay, now THAT I could get into! :) LOL! I'm kind of amused by Pince/Filch, too. And one of my work friends suggested writing Umbridge/Lupin as a spoof. I wonder if I could pull it off....

Arnold was cute though :)

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I once asked someone to write me an Umbridge/Lupin fic. She did too. And it was R rated...
I've never forgiven myself. So wrong. So very, very, very wrong...
(If you think you can take it, I'll post you a link...)

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Actually, please do! I want to see if it's similar to ideas churning around in my head.... :) (I have the title already: "A Thin Line Between Love and Hate." Hehehehe.)

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Ok, here it is. Don't worry, BTW, judging from the title it won't be too similar to your idea.
BTW, when's my Siris and Aunt Marge fic coming? ;D
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sapphiretragedy/45136.html?#cutid1

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Is it f-locked?

Heh. I am hoping to get writing again SOON. This is getting ridiculous. I have a whole paragraph for AIL 10, and all these plots in my head with no text. So hopefully soon! (Although my version of "soon" isn't the rest of the worlds, I fear...)

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Hum... it might be. Tell you what I@ll contact her asking if she'd mind if I cut and paste it onto a reply or onto my LJ to show you. Would that be OK?

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OK, here's another link. This one should work. (I hope!)

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(aaand I forgot to post it, typical me!)
http://www.livejournal.com/community/annettefanfic/7849.html

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topaz7.livejournal.com

Well, it would make sense that it was a red herring, with so many fans noting that there was something wrong with Tonks; she didn't seem like the type to succumb to lovesick mooning (pardon the pun - *loffs*). Had to be something else going on.

I mean, how many people thought Tonks was under Imperius or something? I know it crossed my mind.

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