Big Bang and Dollhouse

[lls_mutant]

So, ALTLUT is done, and now I've been cutting loose on my Big Bang. It's exciting, because I have the whole outline done and know exactly where the story is going. I'm pounding it out like crazy- I'm up to page 28 now. The only thing is kind of a funny aspect. I have several plotlines going through the story, and I'm not sure I've got all my scenes in the right order. I'm relatively happy with the scenes themselves, just... well, I'm cutting from The Colony to the Galactica, and the plots currently aren't that related... you get the idea. I figure I'll write, and then I'll rearrange later.

So. Dollhouse.

So yeah, we're up to Haunted, and I've peeked ahead a little. I'm really, really enjoying the series, and have been from the very beginning, although maybe my standards were low or something :)

Question: I've seen people complaining about genderfail in Dollhouse, and I never read the posts because I wasn't caught up on the series. Can someone point me to a post about it, or explain the logic to me? I'm just not seeing it. I mean, don't get me wrong- I think that the Dollhouse is pretty sick. We've never seen the contracts, so I'm not sure exactly how much the dolls knew when they consented to this, and the way I'm reading Sierra's story, it almost seems like she was put in the Dollhouse involuntarily. But I also don't see ANYTHING about this show that says we're supposed to think this is a good thing. The best I can see in terms of genderfail are that the majority of dolls we've seen in storylines have been female, and most of the non-dolls have been male, save for Victor and Adelle DeWitt. (I have to admit, I was REALLY hoping when I heard Jamie Bamber and Mike Hogan were going to be on that Jamie would be a doll and Mike would be his handler, because COME ON, THAT'S AWESOME (although it seems like the doll-handler genders are opposite, which HELLO DUMB IDEA), but it doesn't look that way.)

So, yeah. I'm not seeing much genderfail, as people like to call it, so I'm enjoying it. Actually, one of my favorite things about the series has been Mellie. I LIKE that they used a girl who... I don't know that she's really plus size, but she isn't a size 0. And she's freaking adorable. And I love that Paul is attracted to her, both physically and emotionally, and that he flat out states she's gorgeous. And it doesn't come off patronizing when he says it- it comes off as Paul really thinks Mellie's gorgeous. And okay, the bits in Haunted with Paul and Mellie are REALLY creepy, but again, they're meant to be.

That said, I'd like to see more of the male dolls. (I was hoping we'd see more of the guy who became a doll after the whole silly-drug incident at Caroline's old college, because hello, hotness, but so far, no such luck.) I know Alpha is male (and yeah, I know who plays him. I knew the second they announced that Alpha had been cast. I forget if I knew that Alan Tudyk was attached to the Dollhouse at that point, but somehow, I knew.), but still.

Anyway, I'm finally starting to think of Ballard a little less as "Woman King Helo", which is good. I'm actually rather liking the character, given his little dark side. But the character that really fascinates me (and I imagine a lot of people) is Topher. I've always wanted to do what Joss is doing here- take a character whose actions are completely morally repugnant and make them (the character, not the actions) likeable. I don't respect Topher. I think he's disgusting, that he isn't seeing anything wrong with what he's doing, that he doesn't consider the consequences, that he's basically playing God. But God help me, at the same time, I do like him. I enjoy his time on screen, his sense of humor is awesome, and he's basically everything Joss fans love about Joss characters wrapped up into one person to give him the maximum appeal to this audience. It's neat.

And his storyline in Haunted? Yeah, that was just... and I love the fact it didn't really matter if the active was a male or a female. (I'm still fairly convinced he imprinted himself on her, but I'm not positive.) But at the very end, when the reveal that it was his birthday came up... I almost sniffled. Classic.

Also? If we ever meet another programmer (like, from another Dollhouse), I hope they're female. I know there's Ivy, but I'd actually love to see a female version.

It also seems like this has been around for a while. It would be AWESOME if Adelle had served a term as a doll. I don't think she has, but it would be really, really neat.



So yeah, very much enjoying this one. Glad to have another sci-fi show!!! Back to my big bang!

Comments

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed Dollhouse the whole way through, though I could tell where some things were off pacing-wise. Most of that was because FOX went in and made them change things and recut. Some of the subtlety was lost.

I love Topher. I love him even more after seeing the extra unaired episode that I'm sure you'll get to, but he's awesome.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can definitely see the pacing thing, although also knowing that this is hoping to be a five year series...

I'm looking forward to seeing Epitaph One. I've peeked enough to know what it's about, and it has me dying for it! :)

Hmmm. I think I need a Dollhouse icon.

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

I'm cutting from The Colony to the Galactica, and the plots currently aren't that related... you get the idea. I figure I'll write, and then I'll rearrange later.

heh, I have the same Colony/Galactica split in my own Big Bang, and it is a bit difficult. So far I've found a few scenes which are thematically-related enough to make nice scene transitions, but most of the Galactica/Colony transitions are just kinda there. I'm not entirely sure about the best order of some of the Galactica scenes, either (the scenes on the Colony are directly sequential, but the ones on Galactica are vignettes, each with a different set of characters. The story converges soon, which should make things much easier, but in the meantime, it's tough!)

I agree that "write, and then I'll rearrange later" is probably the best solution... especially since there's just one more month in which to finish, eek! Must... write... more! :P

For what it's worth, I suspect that breaking it into chapters will help a lot. People are a lot more forgiving of a seemingly unrelated scene if it starts a new chapter.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about the chapters. Right now I'm just writing bang bang bang, and seeing where I get my good transitions.

There's only one more month? Eek! I thought we had two. We do, don't we? I have to admit, what I've been doing is sending sections my beta as I finish them. That way, if something big comes up before then, I can fix it.

Ah, I see. They're due to artists by the first. Okay. I can work with that. One month left to write. Eeek!

I have almost the opposite problem as you- the scenes on Galactica are mostly sequential, but again, I'm starting a few different threads that will all braid together. The scenes on The Colony progress much more slowly, with much less happening. Plus, right now I'm still not TOTALLY diverged from canon. I almost am, but not quite.

Wow. One month. EEK! :)

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. They're due to artists by the first. Okay. I can work with that. One month left to write. Eeek!

Scary, huh? On the plus side, it's only a "rough draft" that's due on Oct. 1, and there's a month between that and the final due date, which leaves some wiggle room. If it gets close to the deadline and I'm not done, I plan to get the main plot sketched in and then take care of the details and side stories during the revision process.

[millari.livejournal.com]

OMG, by the way, I'm butting in to say I'm sorry to be MADE OF FAIL in beta'ing the draft and outline of your Big Bang. I've not forgotten it, I've just been caught up in work and trying to finish a fic for someone's birthday, so I got a little bit um...distracted. But this weekend, I PROMISE. :)

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

No problem, take your time! I have 3 or 4 more chapters ready for you when those are done, too! :D

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

You could check out giandujakiss, coffeeandink, and cofax7 about Dollhouse's genderfail (their tags should provide guidance). They have links to others as well.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much!

[trovia.livejournal.com]

I have a half-written fic lying around somewhere called "Five Actors Who Could Have Played Topher But Didn't", including what I imagine could be AJ's take on him. But I was in over my head with that fic. I just couldn't pull it off in English. Anyway. My point being, I like Topher too. ;) Don't forget to tell us if you still like him after you've seen everything up to Epitaph One!

Anyway. I watched Dollhourse right from the beginning. I must say, when there was a week between episodes full of people discussing it all over the place, it looked much more likely it's a case of genderfail than it does in hindsight. Also, I think you get a very different reading from the show if you aren't familiar with Joss Whedon already. I can't quite remember the points made in the discussion. But I remember that it occured to me I'd be much more skeptical too if I wasn't convinced that Joss writing genderfail is ridiculous. Frankly, I still don't quite get the point of the show. It seems to imply that all prostitution is evil? I don't think prostitution is evil. I'm very pro prostitution. Maybe it's that. There are other implications on the show too that I'm not quite happy about. The premise looks to me... well a little unsubtle and at the same time, a little unclear. I feel like Joss hasn't told me yet what story he wants to tell. That might be where all the suspicion is coming from.

[kappamaki33.livejournal.com]

Sorry to hop in here, but OMG you just said something that made a few pieces of *Dollhouse* finally click for me.

It's the word "prostitution." When you said you were pro-prostitution, I was taken aback for a minute, until I realized you meant pro-sex workers/industry sense. "Prostitute" does predominantly mean sex worker, but it's strongly connected to the idea of debasement, and in older usage, to slavery--"To offer with complete devotion or self-negation." And a person can be said to "prostitute him/herself to" anything--essentially meaning selling your soul for one purpose or goal.

So yes, I think the show is anti-prostitution, but in the sense of prostitution as selling your *self-hood*--both the ability to choose and the ability to remember and place into context the experiences that come from those choices--rather than "selling yourself," ie your body or your body's capabilities. I think American culture in particular has a history of mixing those two, so maybe that has something to do with it?

Anyway, may not be relevant, but it gave me a mini-epiphany, so thanks! And that Five Actors fic sounds really interesting--maybe you'll go back to it someday? Please? :)

[trovia.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know all that. You gave me a mini-epiphany too! :) That explains why the show/Joss kept comparing dolls with the acting business, too. I was so confused about that. Thanks!

[millari.livejournal.com]

Oh, what an interesting epiphany! Yes, that makes a lot of sense, especially given that big speech that Echo gets in the finale (I think) from essentially herself? You know, the one where she's bitching Echo out for selling herself so easily?

And to echo what trovia said, it *does* seem to explain all the comparisons to actors that kept popping up.

How smart you are, Kappa! :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking that AJ would have made an extremely interesting Topher. Who were the other actors you'd picked?

I'm taking Joss's message more as a free will thing, a dangers of technology thing, and more how technology can control people. I don't think it's "prostitution is evil" in the terms of selling sex is evil. (See kappamaki33's comments below.) But I DO agree (and this was a point RDM tried to make, too) that there's a point with technology where we try to play God and we go overboard, and we as humanity lose a piece of our soul. That's more what I'm seeing with this show.

[trovia.livejournal.com]

I'm taking Joss's message more as a free will thing, a dangers of technology thing, and more how technology can control people.

I'd go for that too but if it's about free will, than why compare dolls to that singer in one of the early episodes? Joss and Eliza have been talking about how dolls are similar to actresses, too. But singers and actresses have free will. The comparison doesn't make sense to me. If it's supposed to be about free will, I'm still missing pieces. That, or I don't get the concept of prostituting my soul yet which is of course entirely possible. (if I "sell my soul", that doesn't imply to me that I automatically lose my free will. Actually, the first thing that comes to mind to me about selling my soul is "But that's my choice, and it's nobody's business what I do with my soul, so stop condemning it!". ;))

Still, the fact that people keep talking about this shows that the premise hasn't been made clear. I doubt there ever was that much dissent about the premise of BSG or Buffy after half a season. (though there was dissent about the premise of BSG the moment the show started going to hell) So I'm not surprised people are suspicious about it.

Who were the other actors you'd picked?

Tom Lenk, Seth Green (both proposed by taragel), Mark Sheppard and Alan Cumming.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I actually thought that the guy playing Topher WAS Tom Lenk at first. Heh. Go figure!

Any of those would have been fascinating, though. I think Tom Lenk's interpretation would be the closest to the one we have now. I would have LOVED to have seen what AJ would have done with the part though. (And add me to the chorus of people voting that I'd love to see him play a doll.)

[rebelliousrose.livejournal.com]

I think James Callis would have been a rather awesome Topher, or maybe I just want more Baltar......

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I've wondered about Adelle. Actually one of the things that really had me wondering was Haunted... I wonder if maybe that has happened to Adelle... what if the "real" Adelle is dead?

I'm so GLAD you're enjoying it. And I LOVE Topher... it's SO messed up but I love him. Wait til you finish the season. Briar Rose is fantastic, Omega is pretty good, and Epitaph One rocks! The scenes with Sierra and Topher playing laser tag and what not? ... I want to be hanging out with them! That's like the wrong reaction to everything ever but I do!

This series has so much potential.

Also... after Haunted.... did Resurrection come to mind for you?

ETA: I don't see much more genderfail in this than say... Buffy with female slayers and male watchers... with very few female watchers in place. Also, we know for a fact Whedon is a feminist, but it doesn't mean absolutely everything he does has to focus on gender and subverting gender norms the way he did with Buffy. There was so much talk about genderfail with Doctor Horrible that I wanted to hurt things.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Topher is a fantastic, brilliant character. I'm really loving him. (Plus, I LOVE how the actor plays him, although after watching Briar Rose last night, I think he studied Alan Tudyk quite a bit. Not just in delivery, but in mannerisms. I now want to see something where Alpha is Topher's older brother.)

Resurrection did come to mind a bit! That was pretty interesting. I also was thinking that if they have... name slippage- the head of security guy- in their files that they can resurrect him, they must have all of their employees have had brain scans.

Also, we know for a fact Whedon is a feminist, but it doesn't mean absolutely everything he does has to focus on gender and subverting gender norms the way he did with Buffy.

Yes. It really depends on the characters and the situations. Also, you do kind of need to reflect real world practices. For example, I can not imagine Topher being played by a woman. There's something about that part that SCREAMS to me that it needed to be played by a man. Ditto Boyd. I also notice that the one female handler we do see is attached to the one male doll we've seen with a handler. I could believe that the whole trust issue between handler and doll has something to do with the daddy/daughter mother/son sort of relationship... thing... in the brain. (Yeah, I'm not a psychologist.)

But really, right now the main cast is so tiny... I'm interested to see what happens if we see other Dollhouses.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I feel like Victor's handler changed... I think there was a woman closer to the end but back in Man on the Street where they were accusing him of raping Sierra his handler was a man. By the by... I ship Victor and Sierra like it's my job, and I don't have much to go on with that ship except for Needs but yeah, totally shipping them.

I totally wrote a ficlet a while back with Head!Six being the one who makes Paul stay with the Dollhouse case so long... it was amusing.

[prophetkristy.livejournal.com]

Yay big bang! *feeds your muse a very sugary coffee drink*

The genderfail in Dollhouse...it's there, but it's not horrible (IMHO). Unless you're one of those uber-feministas who pretty much sees everything as misogynistic and is always bagging on Joss not living up to his "feminist cred". Which usually just makes me go "...huh?" Yes, clearly this is Not The Way To Treat Humans. Where is the show saying that it is? I agree it would be better to see more male Dolls (esp. male dolls going on fantasy date assignments). Though Victor's actor (whose name I can't spell)--what an *incredible* actor.

I'm also really intrigued by Topher, because he doesn't seem to think he's doing anything bad. Him and Sierra geeking out was SO ADORKABLE.

My favourite is Boyd, I think. He obviously doesn't like what they're doing...why is he there??

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I think there's genderfail in EVERYTHING if you want to see it that way. I mean, heck, it was there in BSG before they killed off all the human females. (Like, aside from Kendra and Cain, would it have killed them to give us some female-female interaction, and I'm not talking slash stuff? How about, like, Jean and Kara basically realizing they're sisters-in-law, or Dee and Cally having a conversation?) It's not there to a point where it bothers me in this.

We just watched Briar Rose last night, and I was really impressed with how well the guy who played Victor did the head-of-security guy whose name is escaping me now.

I want Boyd-meets-Giles fic :) There are definite personality similarities between them!

[prophetkristy.livejournal.com]

I was really impressed with how well the guy who played Victor did the head-of-security guy

YES, THIS. That's where I kind of sat up and went "holy shit, talent." That actor was in the pre-nomination list for the Airlock Alpha Awards (or some other online award thingy) in the same category as AJ, I was was well and truly torn about who I'd vote for if I was someone who had power over those worts of things.

*wants to see AJ as a Doll soooo much*

(Daisy Wenham! hee!)

[millari.livejournal.com]

That actor is amazing, and he doesn't get enough time because Joss' one piece of actual genderfail (IMHO) is that he doesn't care about showing us the male Dolls nearly as much as he does the female Dolls, because I think he's uncomfortable going to the places he'd have to go with male Dolls. I don't know if it's a touch of unconscious homophobia, or a discomfort with seeing males emasculated, or if it's just a perception that FOX would never let it fly, but damnit, I want to see more about Victor. He fascinates me, and that bit where he imitated Dominic (head of security guy) was AMAZING. Wait til you see what happens to Victor towards the end. I don't know how they're going to use him in Season 2...

Also, can I say how happy I was *not* to be spoiled about Alan Tudyk at the time? I totally bought his Wash-ian character to the very last moment. I mean, I thought maybe he was a little more involved with the Dollhouse than he let on, but Alpha??? I had no idea.

[kappamaki33.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the whole thing yet, either, though the eps. I'm missing are some in the middle. Mellie is one of my favorites, though, right after Victor. And on a completely shallow but honest note? I think she's a lot prettier than Echo. Maybe in part because she has a more interesting personality but...nope, she's also just prettier, IMHO.

Bamber *MUST* be a doll! I'll be very disappointed if he isn't. Somehow, I think Hogan's going to be a client. A client for what purpose, I've no idea.

I can't say I've noticed any genderfail. I wouldn't mind seeing more female handlers, since all we've really seen is the father-daughter dynamic with Boyd-Echo, the rapist/molester-victim dynamic with Sierra's handler and her, and then...oops, I can't say that one yet, because you haven't seen "Epitaph One," though it's not hard to guess. Even though Adelle is at the top, having all the major hands-on caretakers be men so far does slide it a little bit in that direction, but I'm not frustrated with it; I just think there are other dynamics that they could be playing with.

Maybe I'm weird, but I would much rather do what the client in "Haunted" did than renting a doll to be my companion/lover/safe-cracker/insert random job here. The one hole in the premise I see but generally forgive is that, if I were rich enough to afford the dollhouse, I *could* theoretically buy any of those services from actual people. Sure, there's the added appeal of customization, but that's not nearly enough to overcome the squick of their doll-ness for me. Getting the chance to not only walk in someone else's shoes, but to walk in their...feet, though, *that* would be something even rich me couldn't get anywhere else.

Also, yay for big bang progress! :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

She is prettier, I think. She has a very sweet face. (Plus, I did NOT like Caroline's personality, the little we've seen of her. I've very much liked the Mellie incarnation of November.)

I could also see Hogan as a security worker at another dollhouse, or even a programmer (because come on- Hogan and Topher meeting could be fun, depending on what the character is like). Or even another handler at this Dollhouse.

Heh. You know what the twisted little part of me would want to do? I'd want to be imprinted on a male doll. Because really- what person hasn't wondered what it feels like to be a member of the opposite sex?

I should have more big bang stuff for you soon, btw, unless you'd rather get it all at the end. But I think the small sections might make it more manageable? (Also, btw- THANK YOU for pointing out that stuff about the funeral. I hadn't intended for that scene to be THAT ouchy, and I'm really glad you mentioned that it was.)

[kappamaki33.livejournal.com]

Heh. You know what the twisted little part of me would want to do? I'd want to be imprinted on a male doll. Because really- what person hasn't wondered what it feels like to be a member of the opposite sex?

Same thought crossed my mind. The other thing I'd want to try out is a really athletic, graceful body, like a ballet dancer or an Olympic-class runner.

Small sections of the big bang would be ideal. Looking forward to seeing more!

[millari.livejournal.com]

It's a credit to the actor's skills that Topher was so adorable that I didn't stop to think about how reprehensible he was until like episode 3. But by then, I was already starting to have some genderfail worries, because as others have said here, the message didn't seem quite clear. And I think knowing how Joss is and his rep did make things all the more confusing. I literally almost stopped watching altogether after two episodes in a row where I felt like I was watching male violence against women porn (the final straw was the one where Echo was being hunted through the woods as human prey by that crazy hiker/thrillseeker dude; I literally turned it off after he said he'd give her a head start and never watched the rest of the ep, even though I did get lured back into watching the rest of the season eventually).

I think what Joss was trying to do was interesting (and not always clear enough) because I think he was trying to make us reflect on how we the viewers are not all that different from the clients of the Dollhouse. Although I may be giving him too much credit here, I think Joss was trying to purposely blur the line between being entertained by watching the drama of Actives' missions and us identifying with the Dolls' humanity and cursing out all the handlers and clients for being so exploitative.

I think Joss wanted to make us the audience get sucked in by the glamorous personas of the Dolls and then not be so comfortable with that once we thought about it. If you don't do that well, or if you're trying to hide that that's what you're doing at first, then you run the risk of seeming like you're headed for genderfail. Joss held his meta very close to the vest until about the middle of the season, and it was confusing. It seemed at one point that the ratio of genderfail to *meta* about genderfail going on in the show was skewing pretty badly.

Also, there's the basic reality that if Joss had made it clear from the beginning that we were supposed to hate the handlers for all their evil ways, then the show would have turned very simplistic very fast - a la "Dark Angel", and it just wouldn't have been that interesting a show. It's trying to do some unusual things with characterization that you hit upon with your remarks about Topher. It's so interesting how the show kind of turns on Helo Ballard's knight-in-shining-armor persona almost towards the end of Season 1. It basically pulls the rug out from under its own stated hero, which I think is pretty fascinating, and that's when I was really, really clear that Joss had things under control. Btw, wait until you see Ballard and Boyd interact over Echo and the way Ballard acts towards Mellie when he first gets close to Echo. It's really kind of creepy.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

We watched Brier Rose the other night, and Ballard's reactions really WERE creepy. Actually, there's a part of me that can't help thinking, "oh, sure, save the super-skinny girl, even though the bigger girl should mean more to you", but he does have a point that Mellie's got a trigger and he doesn't know what it is. I peeked ahead a bit about the finale episode; I saw that it said Ballard and Echo were partners and I really, really, really hope they just meant that professionally, not sexually. Because a.) yeah, I don't like the implications of Echo vs. November in that, and b.) PREDICTABLE AND BORING! (I will also throw something at my TV if they hook up Peter and Olivia in Fringe. Especially since Charlie OBVIOUSLY has a crush on Olivia :) )

I'm looking forward to watching Omega (hopefully tonight) because let me tell you- the Alpha/Echo kiss made me laugh as hard as President Romo and Admiral Hoshi, and that's NOT a compliment. I love Alan Tudyk. I like Eliza Dushku. But at least in the two seconds in Brier Rose, they just DID NOT WORK together for me. (And it's not seeing Alan Tudyk in a romantic role, because Wash/Zoe is totally my Firefly OTP, and that completely worked for me.)

I think I need to get me a Dollhouse icon. The best I can come up with right now is my Wash quote :)

[rebelliousrose.livejournal.com]

Woman, are you emailing me that story, or what?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Eek! Thanks for the reminder! I've been so busy torturing characters, I haven't stopped to format. Doing that now.

Any thoughts on if I should do anything for the header?