(no subject)

[lls_mutant]

Ugh. I am in a MOOD today. :P Like, completely bitchy. I hate this- I can't get it to go away because it's purely chemical (aka: PMS). But I'm exhausted (took Midol) and worried and grumpy and just impossible to live with. I ought to hole up under a rock somewhere and hide from the people I love for the next day or two.

Failing that, let's bash. I don't think I've ever done something like this for BSG, but here goes.



5.) The Nicky retcon. Really, HOW was it essential that Hera was the ONLY hybrid child? Especially since Nicky was a boy? I don't get it. It really wasn't that important that Hera was the only one, and it just dragged Cally's name through the mud. And Chief, because Chief sure as hell dumped Nicky off on Brendan as fast as he could.

However, this is only #5 for two big reasons: Nicky was better off with HotDog than he would have been with Chief, and it gave rise to HotDog-taking-care-of-Nicky fics, which I LOVE.

4.) The Cylons are all okay now! You don't like the Cylons and you're a racist bigot that thinks that all Arabian people are like the people who did 9/11!

Well, that was the vibe I got. I read someplace that someone thought that one of the early flaws of BSG was the comparison of the Colonies to 9/11. And I agree. 9/11 was horrible, don't get me wrong. But 9/11 didn't result in the death of EVERYONE save 50,000 people or so. And not of the Middleast thinks that terrorism is the way to go, and all of the Cylons voted for the genocide. (Probably soon to be retconned in The Plan.)

So, yeah. I felt like the show was ramming the Cylons down our throats as this misunderstood race. But they still killed off almost an entire race, and they never even so much as said "I'm sorry." This might be an unpopular one, but it's a biggie. (Note: I don't have issue with the Final Five, incidentally. Just the Significant Seven.)

3.) God Did It.

I'm religious, but I'm not a big believer in God getting into everything. I really liked how they handled "God did it" back in Season One, in "Six Degrees of Separation" where Felix saved Baltar right after his conversion. That was so well done- a string of coincidences that made sense but at the same time were very lucky, so you could read it either way- God interfered and made it work out, or Baltar just got lucky and said the right thing to the right person.

But the clear "God Did It" in Season 4.5, from Kara's poofage to AATWT, was just too heavy handed for my tastes.

2.) Love equals babies. Are there words to describe how offensive I found Deadlocked?

Look, there are a few ways to do "love equals babies" that I don't find offensive. I wasn't offended at Sharon and Helo, because there was never any confirmation that that was why Sharon got pregnant. And I could handle it if the Final Five had felt that babies thrive best in a home where they have two parents that love each other, and therefore programmed that into the Seven. But the near-confirmation that that's what the writers were thinking... ugh.

There were better ways to explain Cylon fertility.

1.) Adama.

Okay, I'm going to say it- I just can't forgive Adama for killing Felix. No, it's I can't forgive him for doing it with no emotional consequence. Yes, Adama was a drunken mess through 4.5, but is it too much to ask for ONE MOMENT where he thinks about an officer that must have at least meant SOMETHING to him? Felix died because he believed so strongly in what he was fighting for- why didn't that mean a thing to Adama?

It didn't, because Adama wasn't Adama anymore. He was a sobbing mess. And the thing is, I can get that, but... well, for one, it wasn't what I wanted from the show. Adama always walked a line between caring and doing what he had to, and he fell off that line in Season 4.5, swinging too far both ways. He cared too much about some things, and did what he had to too much in other cases. The balance was gone.

It's not that I expect Adama to be a saint. In fact, one of my favorite moments in the entire series is Laura stealing Hera, because it's such a gutsy thing to do with your hero. But I wanted him to still be Adama. ::sigh::



That felt good. So does the knowledge that someone is coming to the creek with us this morning. Yay! That will make my day easier.

I'm working hard on my big bang, but now I'm wondering if one of my plot elements is working. I was going to have someone be innocent in something, and just perceived as guilty (although never confirming it), but now I'm wondering if he's going to actually be guilty. I think I'll never confirm it either way (it's Zarek- that works for his character), but I'd like to know in my head which it is.

Big bang is getting big though. And I'm almost done the new version of the mutiny, which takes a VERY different shape without Felix, interestingly.

Anyway, creek is calling soon! Hope everyone going to D*C has a fantastic time!

Comments

[brennanspeaks.livejournal.com]

Sorry you're feeling lousy, but *applause* for the list. It's hard to say, but I think the One True God (tOTG) bit may have irked me even more than the Adama character assassination. It made it especially hard to talk about the show with my atheist then-boyfriend. I pretty much had to preface every discussion with "This being that they call 'god,' but which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the God I pray to, is . . ." And, of course, when people started poofing, it was a little hard to take seriously.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks :)

Yeah, the poofing was just... ::sigh:: I was fine with the head!Characters being angels (although those are some pretty strange angels), but still. I'm not sure I understand RDM's version of God. Granted, I'm not sure I understand mine, so let's say I'm not sure I understand RDM's belief system.

[brennanspeaks.livejournal.com]

Well, it's hard to understand RDM's belief when he contradicts himself.

*CAPRICA SPOILERS*

If the Cylon's OTG supposedly started with Zoe Graystone, then the original philosophy was "there is good and there is evil, and there's a god who knows the difference." Catchy, but disturbing in its extremist implications. If, on the other hand, we take Gaius Baltar as the expert, then god is "beyond good and evil." Also catchy and much more humanistic, but equally disturbing for its existential implications. Bit of a three-sixty there. The only real constant in RDM's portrayal of god was the pervasive sexualization of "god's love" (from Zoe's suicide-bomber boyfriend to Head!Six to Gaius with his harem. *headdesk*) But, that's a whole different can of worms.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

Although I love 4.5, I agree with all of these flaws except one of them, which should be obvious. :p

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeah. And actually, I don't mind individual Cylons, or anything like that. Cap6 still bugs me just because of the baby thing, but I rather liked Natalie. And I'm having WAY too much fun with Goatee!Two. It just felt like the show did a 180 on all the Cylons in the 2/6/8 faction, and it didn't quite work for me. It wasn't shades of gray enough.

::Thinks she needs to create a Two, Six, or Eight that still hates humans that's not Sweet!Eight. Except I don't think my big bang can take any more characters.::

The only thing about that icon, though, is that I saw a macro that used that picture and I can't not think of it as a pregnancy test anymore :)

[ivanolix.livejournal.com]

but I'd like to know in my head which it is

*nods* I know what that's like. And, from all I've read, it's something that writers should do. The universe should be deeper than what's actually in the text, or it will feel too created.

On your fandom five thing...I'm pretty okay with Season 4.5, but #1, 2 and 5 are my huuuuuuge beefs with all of it. And #4, sort of. My point of view was that with only a few thousand Cylons and humans left, it was more important that they get over the whole genocide thing and live than try for true justice, because that would only lead to more conflict and death. But I completely agree that the assumption that everyone would just do this with no reservations was insane, both from the writers and the leaders on the show.

#3 I have less of a problem with, because I don't think that God "did" everything on the show. He just influenced a lot; free will took care of the rest. And since I've considered BSG a space fantasy since Season 1, I was already prepared for all the religion stuff to be freaky weird space godlike aliens. But that seems to be a huge YMMV issue for this show, so, eh. *shrugs*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But I completely agree that the assumption that everyone would just do this with no reservations was insane, both from the writers and the leaders on the show.

Yeah- THAT'S more what I have a beef with. The shades of gray were gone. And not just from the human side- the Cylon side, too.

Yeah, I totally agree that the religion thing is a huge YMMV aspect. I liked it for most of the show- I really wish we knew more about Kobol, especially. But it just lost it's balance a little in 4.5, and that bugged me.

Ah well! Venting is fun :)

The universe should be deeper than what's actually in the text, or it will feel too created.

This is true! And the character I'm debating on is Zarek, and the fun thing about Zarek is that he's best done when you don't know for sure one way or the other how deeply he's got his hand in something. The mutiny took on a whole new form without Gaeta in my AU, and part of the point is that without Gaeta, they didn't have that strong link to Zarek. Zarek knows my mutiny leader, but not like he knew Gaeta, so I don't know that he'd be so willing to commit to what he did with Gaeta. And I'm not sure my mutiny leader would ask him to do so.

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

4.) The Cylons are all okay now! You don't like the Cylons and you're a racist bigot that thinks that all Arabian people are like the people who did 9/11!

Yeah, this isn't a very good equivalence. You don't like the Cylons means you don't like the Cylons -- that's about it, really. It doesn't make you an OMG RAC1ST!!!!!... except against Cylons, who sort of don't really exist, so big deal. :P

That said, I thought the idea (though not the execution, ugh!) of a truce between the Cylons and humans was pretty realistic. WWII was nearly as severe as the attack on the colonies, in a more drawn-out fashion -- some of the nations involved lost 20-30% of their entire population, the European Jews really did have to flee their homeland with the remnants of their people, and Britain, Germany, and Japan experienced the equivalent of 9/11 (in bombing) almost every day for years -- and yet the nations involved had to stop fighting when it was finished, and they had to live next to each other again. They couldn't just keep fighting "'til we can't", because duh, they were fighting to live in the first place. The memoirs I've read from that time suggest that most people were too tired and hurt to keep up the argh-blargh-hatred anymore, no matter how justified that hatred might have been, and just sort of shuffled off and tried to rebuild.

Especially given the spot the humans were in, I can see where they'd jump at the chance to make peace. And yes, some people (like Felix) would never stop fighting, but I don't think the majority could be expected to behave that way. Most of them probably just wanted the war to end, just as soldiers generally do.

As for the whole question of morality, I think the writers dropped the ball on that big time. I really liked the idea that both sides were repeatedly tearing into each other in this big, morally ambiguous, multi-generational cycle of conflict... too bad the whole thing turned out to be ALL ONE GUY'S FAULT LOL. And everybody else on the entire show (except Tory!) got a Get Out Of Genocide, Murder, And Torture Free card. Yay, I guess we can wash our hands of the things we've created! Let's go camping! *facepalm*

And yeah, I do expect The Plan to contain a scene where Cavil (complete with cape and handlebar mustache) makes the others vote for bad things because he is a baddie who is bad. Gee, funny how it seemed like they were all pretty into genocide back in season 1... oops, retcon time!

I ought to make up a retcon bingo card for The Plan, featuring such squares as Cavil Turns Tory Evil, Cavil Makes Leoben Keep Kara In A Creepy Dollhouse, Cavil Programs Boomer And Then Cackles About It, Cavil Fools Simon And/Or Doral, and Cavil Is, Like, Really Mean To Sam. And, of course, the center square is reserved for No Atheists In Foxholes, because there's no way it's going to end without that.

Oh, show, I loved you. Why did you make me hate you? If season 4.5 was such a mistake... if it was so broken, so irredeemable, then whose fault is that? That's not God's fault -- it's you, Ron! This is all on you!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

::giggle:: I like your ending there :)

Yeah, the show just lost its shades of gray. That was the thing. The points that Felix and Tom had about the Cylons were valid. I don't necessarily agree with them that the truce was wrong, because I had the omniscient viewpoint, but I wish that the show had been more willing to admit that they had points. I would have liked to have seen more about that from other intelligent people. It became too simplistic, and when it became simplistic, that's when I got the "You must like the Cylons now!" vibe.

And I really, REALLY hope they don't overdue the Evil of Cavil, but I suspect they will. Not because I mind on Cavil's part- Cavil has always had his black hat, and I don't really expect him to change. But I don't want the others to be the poor, put upon lines that are only agreeing because they're afraid of what he'll do after what he did to the Sevens. I'm fine with the Cylons learning and growing, but let's definitely not forget that they were all okay with this back in Season 1. Raring for it, really.

Really, RDM, it's okay to leave some of the Cylons as genocidal robots. That's the POINT- they're becoming individuals.

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the show just lost its shades of gray. That was the thing. The points that Felix and Tom had about the Cylons were valid.

Yes, they were. Then again, I think Cavil's points about the humans were valid, too. Neither side was all that Good(tm), which is why the shades of gray were so important, and why the moralistic ending falls a little flat...

Not because I mind on Cavil's part- Cavil has always had his black hat, and I don't really expect him to change. But I don't want the others to be the poor, put upon lines that are only agreeing because they're afraid of what he'll do after what he did to the Sevens.

Yeah. Cavil was always a bastard, that's for sure. That said, he had a bit more depth in S2/S3/4.0 -- seems like they took him from "someone who wants to live as a Cylon and doesn't really give a crap about humans" straight to "one-dimensional evil super-baddie". Likewise, the 2/6/8s went from "killer robots conflicted about individuality and genocide" to "oh-so-innocent doe-eyed wimps". Too bad!

[tuppence1.livejournal.com]

This is all very true. But I think this differs for the folks without something to return to at the end of WW2. And in this case, I think the Colonials are much closer to the Jews than they are to the Poles, or Brits (the percentages, by the way, are closer to the *Roma* than to the Jews. The Jews "only" lost 2/3rds, 67%. The Roma lost *90*%. And suffer from appalling bigotry inflicted upon them currently, but that's another rant.) Those numbers *still* don't match what the Colonials lost.

I can't possibly speak for all WW2 era Jews but I think more often than not, there is simply no forgiveness. An older woman I'm close with is the gentlest person I know. She got out of her part of Europe to safety 3 seconds before it was too late (we're both Jewish). Tarantino ain't normally her speed, but she's planning to see his new movie because of the cathartic violence against the Nazis. All these years later, and she still feels joy at seeing revenge for what she lost.

She will never forget. And I'd have words to anyone who suggested that she should. I'd have words for anyone who suggested that she should've lived next to the "former" nazis, or even genuinely recovered Nazis. And I'd have more goddamned words for anyone who suggested that she owned *anyone* forgiveness. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but it is not required. Some things truly are unforgivable, and I have no trouble saying that genocide is one of those things.

So while Helo may be more admirable for making the forgiveness leap (And I give him credit for being the first - he found some forgiveness before it became the common or utilitarian route), I find Felix more sympathetic. Because I know in his shoes, as an actual direct victim (I'd have no business hating anyone as a mere descendant*), I wouldn't be able to make that leap either. And I wouldn't deserve to have "God" manipulate matters so I was shot for it.

That's the attitude that I find the most appalling in all this. There's a view in parts of fandom - and I hope it's just fandom because I don't want to think that RDM & co really meant for this to be the lesson - that the characters who died along the way were necessary; even deserved their fates in a sense, because they couldn't make the leap to forgiveness. That makes me crazy. Just...fuck that attitude. Who the hell do you think you are to compel someone else to forgive the horrific crime against them? I find that attitude immoral, and reeking of majority privilege. (And speaking of thit attitude, here's a note to Jacob of TWOP - start by addressing your class and sexism issues, and go from there, please.)

Now don't get me wrong: hold that attitude all you want, but when you translate it into action - like raping your cylon prisoner - you've crossed the line. I hope like hell Seelix made it to earth, but she'll have no right to kill or harm the 2, 6, or 8 who lives next door to her. (I view the mutiny differently actually, because I think Felix [and Racetrack] were honestly working to save humanity, and only a little bit for revenge. Noel and Seelix probably fall more on the revenge side of the scale. Sunshine boys were just there for sadism and didn't care about humanity or revenge. Skulls and Zarek I still can't read.) Seelix's kids will have no right to hold anything against a 6's kids, and everyone would certainly be healthier and happier if they can find some forgiveness. But that comes at their own pace, not anyone else's. Certainly not Adama's.

*Especially a society like Germany's, who acknowledged the tremendous cultural guilt and studied how to keep this from happening again. I find that absolutely admirable [and a *lot* of current western societies should learn from this]). This is why I miss Natalie so damn much - because she showed the process of getting this. This is why I'm so annoyed that *Boomer*, who got this *first*, got turned into a designated villain. (Now there's an eternal debate - who got frakked over more, Boomer or Felix? I still love you Boomer.) This is why I'm so pissed Caprica got shunted into "love interest" for Baltar's and Tigh's storylines for basically the rest of the show (sigh - poor Caprica). I saw signs of empathy from *Simon* in his first damn episode! Couldn't we have explored that more?

[grey-sw.livejournal.com]

Those numbers *still* don't match what the Colonials lost.

Of course not. My point was only that we do have many examples of people who were in a similar situation (lost everything, had to run, with hardly any families left intact), and most who got out didn't turn back around to keep fighting forever and ever until they died. They wanted to live. I wasn't talking about forgiveness, necessarily, but about the simple reality of living on, even if it means co-existing with the enemy. And, again, not everybody is willing to make that choice, not everybody has to be, and I'm certainly not saying everybody "should" be... but IMHO, it makes sense that most people probably would be. I think we can all agree that people like Felix are few and far between. :)

I still love you Boomer.) This is why I'm so pissed Caprica got shunted into "love interest" for Baltar's and Tigh's storylines for basically the rest of the show (sigh - poor Caprica). I saw signs of empathy from *Simon* in his first damn episode! Couldn't we have explored that more?

It seems like a lot of characters got used as convenient plot points, especially Boomer, Caprica, The Chief, and Ellen. All four of them were wildly OOC throughout season 4.5, and were pretty much just doing Whatever The Writers Want at any given time. Too bad, because they had some of the most interesting pre-4.5 character arcs!

I think the core problem with season 4.5 is that the writers stopped being critical about their own work. They didn't ask the important questions: would character X do this? Does it fit the story so far? How would other characters react? What would happen next? What does this imply about the overall theme of the story? Is the theme still self-consistent? Instead, they put down whatever worked in service to their Very Important Point, and that led to bizarre plot cul-de-sacs and simplistic characterization. The podcasts and commentaries for 4.5 are painfully myopic; it's as if the writers didn't even see the obvious implications and contradictions of the series. For instance, the fact that they were blindsided by the Daniel-Is-Starbuck's-Dad thing makes me wonder whether they even had anybody watch it before they threw it on TV... hell, any beta reader worth his/her salt would have caught that one!

[safenthecity.livejournal.com]

Your issues with 4.5 are my issues as well. Actually, I think I addressed all by #5 in my parody. :) So yeah, always good to know I'm not alone.

YOUR HINTS ABOUT YOUR BIG BANG ARE KILLING ME. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS!

[kappamaki33.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with what you said about many of these becoming issues because they lost their shades of gray--especially 4, 2, and 1. I wonder if they would have been executed better had there been more than ten episodes left to cover everything, but I'm not sure. 5, I don't think was necessary at all (I get the feeling RDM has no idea what Mitochondrial Eve means--since Hera's a girl and Nicky's a boy, her half-Cylon mitochondrial DNA still would've been unique, since Nicky obviously won't be passing his on to his kids. ::sigh::), but I like Hotdog enough that I kind of let that one slide.

3...3 I struggle with, especially since "The Final Five did it" would have worked so well had they just made Daniel Kara's dad. In fact, I've half-way rewritten parts of the ending in my head to get around the parts I'm not comfortable with. To me, Daniel *is* Kara's dad--there's nothing but the podcast to say she isn't, so I'm sticking with it. That way I can think of "All Along the Watchtower" as a message the Thirteenth Tribe, including the Five or their predecessors, left for themselves and for the Seven.

And then I've completely rewritten Kara's last scene in my head. I like her true nature being ambiguous, so when Lee turns around, he finds Kara has already started walking away from him--she's up on the crest of a hill, walking into the sun until she just fades from view. Maybe she poofed, maybe she just walked far away. It's a prettier image, it ties into Sam going into the sun and to the image of her burning her own body on Earth I, and I like it, dammit, so I just ignore reality on that point. ;)

[tuppence1.livejournal.com]

"And not of the Middleast thinks that terrorism is the way to go, and all of the Cylons voted for the genocide. (Probably soon to be retconned in The Plan.)"

Oh god. You're probably so right. Now I'm depressed. And it makes a mockery of early season 4 if they do that - the whole damn point of it is the shock of Boomer breaking the deadlock, which leads to the desperation for Natalie and co.

"Okay, I'm going to say it- I just can't forgive Adama for killing Felix. No, it's I can't forgive him for doing it with no emotional consequence. Yes, Adama was a drunken mess through 4.5, but is it too much to ask for ONE MOMENT where he thinks about an officer that must have at least meant SOMETHING to him? Felix died because he believed so strongly in what he was fighting for- why didn't that mean a thing to Adama?

It didn't, because Adama wasn't Adama anymore. He was a sobbing mess. And the thing is, I can get that, but... well, for one, it wasn't what I wanted from the show. Adama always walked a line between caring and doing what he had to, and he fell off that line in Season 4.5, swinging too far both ways. He cared too much about some things, and did what he had to too much in other cases. The balance was gone."

THANK YOU. Yes, this exactly. And also...it isn't just the total lack of emotion regarding the execution, it's that I think his real motives in allowing an execution were wounded pride and embarrassment, as well as the "betrayed" loyalty. And I have no patience for a man who'd make a life or death decision out of those motives. I suspect this is why I still love and respect Roslin - I don't think those were considerations for her. And yes, Adama was absolutely justified in his decision. I still don't respect it or him.

(May I friend you BTW? I think the last three posts I responded to have been yours, and I really like your meta.)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I was procrastinating my big bang and going back through the comments, and I'm so sorry I never responded to this! The only explanation I have to offer is big bang- I've been frantically pounding on it and being LOUSY about answering comments. I suck.

I totally agree about Roslin. I mean, I love Tom Zarek, and I have no qualms about him dying. (However, this might be because Tom's character and arc almost dictated him dying violently or becoming King of All and wearing a shiny hat :) ) I think the other thing for me was that after the mutiny, Laura snapped out of it. She started to take an interest in the Fleet again, and at least did her transition in handing the reins over to Lee a little more actively. Whereas the mutiny didn't snap Adama out of anything.

And feel free to friend! I'm apparently crap at answering comments, but you're more than welcome!

[tuppence1.livejournal.com]

My god, no worries at all. :) Anyone who runs, has a family with two small children, a husband, and writes as much as you do, well, I think you get an automatic excuse. I'm slower to respond to comments, and I don't have anywhere near your excuses (or do or have any of the above, in fact :)

But thank you - I appreciate it!

[prophetkristy.livejournal.com]

AMEN, AMEN, ALLELUIA, AMEN.

(also, apparently the original BSG was Mormon, so...it all makes sense now. Brain-hurting sense, but.)