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Aug. 17th, 2005 10:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lls_mutantIs it THAT hard to believe that Sirius and Remus were friends? Really? I can understand completely that a lot of people don't see a romantic relationship. Totally fine. But is it really that hard to believe they were supposed to be as close as brothers?
Sigh.
If you want to know what I'm talking about, head over to Fiction Alley Park>MWPP>Can't Remus be Bi?
Really. Sirius CAN have more friends than James.
Sigh.
If you want to know what I'm talking about, head over to Fiction Alley Park>MWPP>Can't Remus be Bi?
Really. Sirius CAN have more friends than James.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2005-08-18 03:01 am (UTC)I don't even want to go and look, because these people piss me off so much. Gah. It's possible to have more than one close friend. It's even possible to have a significant other and a few close friends. I mean, James does. Why can't anyone else?
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Date: 2005-08-18 03:16 am (UTC)::sigh:: It just baffles me.
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Date: 2005-08-18 03:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 02:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 03:34 pm (UTC)I don't really have a problem with different interpretations of the friendships and relationships in the books, but once the interpretation starts requiring more convolutions and twists than the most obvious answer...well, why? That's one of the reasons I do like R/S so much -- because it's a complicated story, but it doesn't require *any* radical interpretations of either character. It just fits, with the story as written and the characters as they are. Even with R/T in the picture now, it still fits, no acrobatics required.
But something like, "Remus and Sirius were never even friends!" makes my brain hurt. That requires a very creative reading of the text. :)
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Date: 2005-08-18 07:44 pm (UTC)That's exactly what I like about R/S as well. It does fit. It's part of the reason I can't get my head around H/D. Wouldn't Harry/Ron work SO much better, if you really wanted to slash? (Not that I'm knocking people who ship H/D, especially as since most of them don't remotely care that it isn't even close to canon and have other reasons for playing with it.)
But yeah, Remus and Sirius were never friends goes up there with the theories that Ron would be a wife-beater, and evil Lupin. JKR does do the surprises, but they never require a lot of mental gymnastics. I mean- Sirius and Peter switched places and Peter was really the secret keeper. Moody was really Crouch in disguise. These surprises don't take a lot of explanation- a sentence really kind of sums it up. When people say she never does what's expected, or her hints are really subtle... no. Her hints vary to very well done to anvil sized, and she sometimes does the unexpected. That's what makes the unexpected hard to spot.
So bizarre.
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Date: 2005-08-18 03:59 am (UTC)Oh, wait.
Well, it's not like Remus had any sort of calming influence over Sirius.
Oh, wait.
Still, it's not like they spent any time together or, you know, brought Christmas presents together, or, say, finished each other's sentence--
Oh, wait.
But I mean, it's not like Remus seemed to be in any pain when Sirius--
Oh, wait.
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Date: 2005-08-18 02:28 pm (UTC)People just baffle me. Because, y'know, I ALWAYS act perfectly towards the people I love. ::rolls eyes and sighs::
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Date: 2005-08-23 05:18 am (UTC)I see that a lot, or used to, when I actually paid attention to people who were trying to refute the possibility of Sirius/Remus. It annoys me so much. As furious and hurt as Remus might have been over the Prank and over having been suspected - and we're given no indication that he is anymore - isn't it possible that he's moved on? That after thirteen years he's willing to forgive? That after all those years in Azkaban Sirius has paid and paid and doesn't owe anyone anything?
Grrsnarl.
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Date: 2005-08-23 08:18 pm (UTC)I suspect when looking at the Prank we're only supposed to see Sirius tried to kill Snape, and maybe he was inconsiderate of Remus as he did it. You can add all these layers on in fanfic, but you can also so easily make it plausible that while Remus might have been ticked for a few days, he didn't hold a grudge for months upon months. I think I have it being maybe 14-17 days before he's speaking to Sirius normally again, because he's not a grudge holder. He's a forgiver. And then by he next full moon they're completely fine. And they're boys. I could see Remus being more upset that Sirius tried to kill Snape than that he saw him as a weapon to do it with. I wonder just how much he analyzed it, y'know?
And the suspicion... well, Remus has to confirm with Sirius that he suspected him. Which to me says for 13 years he didn't even KNOW Sirius suspected him. And since he believed Sirius was a mass murderer... hey, all's fair in love and war. :)
Sorry. Needed to procrastinate ;)
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Date: 2005-08-18 08:04 am (UTC)Oh wait. There I go using silly Earth logic again.
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Date: 2005-08-18 02:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 02:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 08:48 am (UTC)I'm the first to admit I didn't see Remus/Sirius until OotP - and also the first to admit that after 12 months, I can see Remus moving on.
I've always thought of Remus as bi.
However, that thread in FA really takes the cake.
To be honest - I've seen more Wolfstar bashing going on at FA than I have ever seen Wolfstar bashing R/T. It seems to be a hobby of a number of Parkies.
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Date: 2005-08-18 02:33 pm (UTC)I've thought of Remus as gay, but I see sexuality as a spectrum- not just three points where you're either 100% hetero, 50/50 bisexual, or 100% gay. So I can move Remus to the spot where he prefers men, but there's a certain type of woman that really does appeal to him, especially when they get emotionally close.
I've definitely seen a lot more Wolfstar bashing going on, in subtle ways especially. It bothers me because there does seem to be a smug glee about it. And it's not always the known R/T shippers. ::Sigh::
Hey, where are people getting this
Date: 2005-08-19 08:33 am (UTC)Sirius fell at MOM a week before Harry's school hols, and then Dumbledore collects him a fortnight after Hogwarts had summer holidays, and Lupin and Tonks out themselves around what? Sept. to July?
The point is though, if the shippers can be belived Remus/Tonks started in OoTP, and even if not, they started after Sirius' demise, so how do people factor in the year?
With regards to R/S on FAP, I don't really read the board. I do think that people tend to miss the fact that various friendships have various dynamics. Whereas Sirius/James probably shared the same heart and brain, Remus and Sirius were different. Lupin is steady to Sirius' mercurial state, and they complimented each other as best as they could have. I do believe that in OoTP, they probably were closer than they were before, because they bloody well went through hell for it (even though, I'm now wondering if Lupin was diddlying with Tonks while Sirius was going out of his mind. It disturbs me that he would have done so, really. I'm clinging on to
Re: Hey, where are people getting this
Date: 2005-08-19 12:52 pm (UTC)I cannot, under any circumstances (even if JKR tells me so) believe that R/T started in OotP. I really can't. There's two huge things: 1.) the joint Christmas present was from Remus and Sirius, and Tonks gave Harry a present as well. If Remus and Tonks were together, wouldn't the joint Christmas present have been from them? 2.) When Tonks falls in the Department of Mysteries, Remus doesn't react. At all. He doesn't even LOOK her way. His entire attention is focused on Harry and Sirius, and it's Moody that crawls over and tries to revive Tonks.
The way I read their relationship is that Tonks made some sort of advance towards Lupin after they see Harry off to the Dursleys, and Lupin rejected her. (And the way I write it is that he slept with her for comfort, but didn't want a relationship. She interpretted it as a LOT more, and that's why she was so devestated.) While Tonks does bring up marriage in the Evil Hospital Scene, it's in reference to Bill and Fleur- who ARE getting married. I don't think that she and Remus had anything going before then. After Sirius died, when would they have time? Remus was away constantly, and Tonks was stationed in Hogsmeade. So even if Tonks's feelings begin long before the EHS, I don't see Remus as actually being willing to start a relationship until that point.
And if they were meant to be seeing each other in OotP, it was really, really badly done! :)
I agree though. I LOVE
The thing is,
Date: 2005-08-19 01:22 pm (UTC)The thing is this, if Lupin was actually sleeping with Tonks while Sirius was going half mad with inactivity and grief, doesn't that make Lupin a lesser friend? In the sense that he actually throws his friendship over for sex?
What I don't understand is the fact that most women online think that's okay. I mean, why would it be so? I think if that were to happen, I would think less of Lupin (and saying that Sirius was right about 1981 - he'd have been screwed either way) not more, and it astounds me that people accept and encourage that.
In terms of R/T in OoTP, is it the fact that they go off to guard the DOM a reason for them to get together. So instead of looking after the prophecy on which the wizarding world is based on, they used that time to get their snogging on? Or when Lupin goes to visit her in the infirmy at St. Mungos? Do they start their relationship there? Or the heavy whispers in OoTP?
It seems I use people's reactions to R/T as a litmus test to see if we're comptable or not. If I get 'Oh, I like R/T, but I hate how it was done' I'm cool but if I get 'R/T, I called it, and Ms. Rowling is GOD, and I'm so smug and it was perfect!' I go WTF?
I don't think that she and Remus had anything going before then. After Sirius died, when would they have time? Remus was away constantly, and Tonks was stationed in Hogsmeade. So even if Tonks's feelings begin long before the EHS, I don't see Remus as actually being willing to start a relationship until that point.
Yeah. I agree with that. It seems that after Sirius' death things moved pretty quickly, and Lupin was out of Grimmauld Place pretty early and all. I do agree with the whole sleeping together thing, and how Tonks believes what she wants to believe and then - cue Evil Hospital Scene (tm) and all is revealed.
Re: The thing is,
Date: 2005-08-19 06:24 pm (UTC)I do think they got to know each other in OotP, and established a base of friendship. And like I said, I can 100% believe that Tonks had a thing for Remus during that time frame. But yeah, they're WORKING most of the time. And the heavy whispers... other people are around then. They're whispering because they're talking about things that are order related that they don't want the kids to overhear. If I remember right, I think there were some Weasleys- and probably Sirius- at the table when they were whispering.
I know what you mean about the litmus test. I don't mind so much when people like the relationship itself. What bothers me is when they say "it's so CUTE!" There's nothing cute about Remus. (Of course, I also won't say that he and Sirius were cute. That was NOT a cute relationship!) And yeah, if they say JKR was a goddess for writing it as she did... I thought it was horribly written. (I just think it's only a few pages of the book. JKR writes so much else extraordinarily well. She's just crap with romance. Leave the romance out of it, and I'm very, very happy. Although I LOVED how she did the sillier teenaged romances!)
Until anything else is revealed, I'm going with my mindfuck theory, which is the basis of the R/S --> R/T fic I'm working on. Not a deliberate mindfuck, just an accidental one because Remus doesn't realize what he's playing with. I'd LOVE for Kris's version to be right, but I suspect I'd be very disappointed at book 7 if I banked on it. (But if I bank on it to be wrong, and it turns out she IS right, I will be very, very, very happy about being wrong!)
Give me a link when you're finished with that remus/tonks
Date: 2005-08-19 06:33 pm (UTC)*waggles* I need to get back to my knitting. I stopped knitting because my wrists were hurting, and now that they are not, I need to get back to it (knitting a lace shawl for my stepdaughter - hopefully, it will be done by christmas!)
Re: Give me a link when you're finished with that remus/tonks
Date: 2005-08-19 08:01 pm (UTC)Have fun with the knitting! A lace shawl sounds gorgeous!
Hey, a link
Date: 2005-08-20 09:00 am (UTC)I swear. This girl and myself shares a brain.
Hmm... I just found out that my stepdaughter hates navy blue.
Off to find different coloured yarns then.
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Date: 2005-08-18 10:23 am (UTC)By virtue of my very crooked reasoning, if they're wrong in not seeing the friendship, they're certainly wrong in not seeing the more than friendly love either ;)
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Date: 2005-08-18 02:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 10:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 11:10 am (UTC)But, that said... No. I don't think he was bi. I think he was GAY, only for Sirius. ;) But you know that, and Jo doesn't agree with me. So I'm gonna eat some worms. (or go to class). ciao!
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Date: 2005-08-18 02:39 pm (UTC)And JKR might not agree with you, but if they can hide the Animagus transformation from DD, can't they hide their love lives from JKR? :)
So are you settling into grad school well?
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Date: 2005-08-18 10:12 pm (UTC)Actually, I shouldn't talk. We've only had one dady of classes, but we got to start dissecting our dogs! My partners and I have this big, lovely, Pitt-mix. That's going to be a crazy experience. We have the dogs for ten weeks and horses in January. It's a case-based (rather than ivory tower) curriculum, which is so involved and so much more interesting than lectures all the time (only a couple hours of lecture each day, and the rest is spent doing practical things). We get to start working with live animals on Monday. I really can't believe they're letting us do all this so soon.
It's like "Hi. So you want to be a veterinarian? Go ahead!"
:):):)
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Date: 2005-08-19 12:54 pm (UTC)That's what I liked about grad school, too. The work was overwhelming, but it was USEFUL. No silly requirements- everything I had to take I could see why I needed it. You don't have to do a thesis or anything for vet school, right?
I can't believe you're actually making me miss grad school a bit!
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Date: 2005-08-19 06:27 pm (UTC)And, well, the ability to actually *do* the job. It's almost more a professional school than a masters or PhD program.
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Date: 2005-08-18 06:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-18 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-24 03:56 am (UTC)Personally, I think it's pointless to debate characters' canon sexual orientations simply because JKR isn't going to write same-sex relationships into her books. I've seen the quotations about how she doesn't care if people are offended or dislike the books, but she has also said that the books are going to remain at a level where an 8-year-old can read them independently, and no matter what anyone tries to say, very few parents are going to agree that a gay relationship is something an 8-year-old is ready to read about.
I'm not even going to go into the issue of Sirius being close only with James. *zips it*
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Date: 2005-08-24 03:18 pm (UTC)It's very sad to me that this may be true.
It's one thing if I said to JKR "hey, were Remus and Sirius getting it on?" and she just blinks kind of confused for a moment, and says "no. I never even thought of that." But it's another that there's a social stigma against it.
She killed a teenager, a father figure, and Dumbledore. (Cedric's death actually really bothered me.) She's shown violence, gore, mutilation, and abuse. Isn't it sad our society considers that more appropriate children's fare than the idea that Sirius and Remus loved each other as more than friends? (It's not like she was EVER going to show them shagging on the table- and heck! When do we see Molly and Arthur kiss? You can write love without writing the physical.) So the kids' books arguments- to me- are a load of bullshit, frankly. But I guess society will continue to insist they're right. ::sigh::
It does kind of baffle me that people consider the ship "sunk", and yet over at FAP, it doesn't. There's a lot of R/S shippers that consider their ship one that will never be canon. But there's also some shippers that insist very loudly that it WAS canon, or was one step away, and will not allow for the interpretation that they were platonic friends. ::sigh:: Every ship's got its bad apples, and sadly, ours is no exception! But not all anti-shippers are convinced it can't possibly be plausible, either. Ah well!
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Date: 2005-08-27 12:30 am (UTC)I've no problem with accepting Remus and Sirius as strong friends - in fact, I insist on it. The way I read it, though, I think the dynamic of the friendship changed a lot over the years, and in particular there's a huge discontinuity between the period before Godric's Hollow and the period after the Shrieking Shack.
At school, the relationship of James and Sirius with Remus seems to me to be a lot like that of Fred and George with Lee Jordan. They're extremely good friends, but the first-mentioned pairings have a brotherly (or for-all-practical-purposes-brotherly) bond that Remus and Lee can't match, and which leads them to doing a lot of things with just the two of them rather than with the third. By the same token, digressing slightly, their relationship with Peter seems rather like that of Draco with Pansy - a casual fondness, with a sort of acceptance of hero-worship as their due. (If we're making comparisons, Peter's attitude to Remus might be reminiscent of her behaviour towards Finally-After-Six-Books-We-Find-Out-Something!Blaise in that train scene.)
I think it's clearly implied that Remus was slipping out of their circle somewhat late on in the first war - if most of the werewolves were with Voldemort, I'd imagine everyone in the Order must have suspected him of being the spy. (Hmm - wondering whether he might have been working undercover in the first war too, I've just been struck by a plotbunny of Ambiguous!DoubleAgent!Remus paralleling Snape in HBP. Don't think I'll write it, but it's a thought ...)
Erm, anyway, moving on. A R/S relationship here is possible, but I'd say the hugely strong bond some people see isn't - friends-with-benefits at the most, and no actual canon indications (either way, to be fair).
I think the emotions and reactions on display in the Shrieking Shack scene are probably largely sui generis for all concerned (including the Trio) - there are just so many Shocking Revelations packed into such a short space of time it would be a miracle if anyone was managing to think about the situation rationally. I read Remus as probably having been shattered by the events of Halloween 1981 (losing his four closest friends in one fell swoop) and so would, I'd say, have embraced Peter with equal fervour if he'd turned out to be the innocent one, just because he's so glad to have something back from what he (I would imagine) sees as something of a golden era for him.
I'd really like to think that Remus and Sirius met up at least a few times during GoF, but there's little canon support for the idea, given that Sirius is either in Africa or in his cave most of the time. (I was planning to have him visit Remus in my long Tonks fic - although that would be one of the things she wouldn't realise, even if the reader did - so I'm pinning that on the "lie low at Lupin's" instruction which kind of implies that he's done so before.)
Anyway, on to OotP when we have something to work with. I tend to see the dynamic between them here as very different from what it was even in the Shack - Remus in the role as more of a caregiver or older brother, as he's grown up (because he's had to) and Sirius hasn't (because he never really got the chance to), and because Sirius is clearly finding being at 12GP tough. I'd imagine both men cling to each other emotionally to a significant extent, though, because to each the other represents something back of the times when they were happy - in other words, the relationship is quite possibly if anything closer than it was at Hogwarts, because they're the last ones standing.
Personally, I don't think it was sexual, and find that take less interesting than the friendship one, but there's some scope there. I also think that Sirius is achingly missing James (because being around Dementors had probably replayed the events of Halloween 1981 over and over for twelve years) - hence his ambiguous sometimes brotherly, sometimes parental reactions to Harry, and why I don't think Remus is quite a substitute for him.
Anyway, a rambling analysis there. Hope some of it made sense. :)
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Date: 2005-08-27 03:30 pm (UTC)(Hmm - wondering whether he might have been working undercover in the first war too)
Heheh. Beat you to it. I've got Remus as a double agent in the first war in my fic, and at the moment works heavily with Regulus (cliched, in a sense, but oh, did HBP give me a LOT to work with for that!) Of course, now I'm not 100% sure why they're running around stealing various artifacts, but hey- Voldemort was a bit of a magpie.
A R/S relationship here is possible, but I'd say the hugely strong bond some people see isn't - friends-with-benefits at the most
Actually, I agree. I write them as loving each other very much in a platonic sense, and having love in the romantic sense, but I think it's pretty canon that Sirius didn't have any actual romantic commitment before 1981. The transendent one-love-of-a-lifetime view of R/S is something I can't quite get behind, partly because of canonical evidence, and partly just because of my own views on love.
and so would, I'd say, have embraced Peter with equal fervour if he'd turned out to be the innocent one, just because he's so glad to have something back from what he (I would imagine) sees as something of a golden era for him.
Yes. I think Remus might have been closer to Sirius than Peter (although everything we really know about MWPP is told once we know that Peter is the traitor), but I really think that the hug in the Shack had everything to do with friendship and brotherhood and absolution, and not anything remotely to do with any sort of romance. Have you seen Tealin's drawing of the hug? It definitely captures that sort of desperate gladness you're talking about that Remus must feel. (If you haven't, let me know and I'll give you the link. It's perfect.)
I'd really like to think that Remus and Sirius met up at least a few times during GoF, but there's little canon support for the idea, given that Sirius is either in Africa or in his cave most of the time.
I can't help but wonder if that isn't one of the reasons Remus fled Hogwarts so quickly. I can't imagine if my sister or my best friend was in Sirius's position that I wouldn't immediately go to her. There's no canon evidence for it, but I think it's a logical stretch. Also, Dumbledore does state that Harry is not Sirius's only correspondant. I like to believe that Remus wrote even if they weren't around each other. I can understand that Remus didn't have much in terms of food, money, or clothing to offer Sirius, but I can't imagine there wasn't some contact between the two of them, even if it's not stated in canon.
OotP- I definitely agree with the emotional clinging and that they're very close, and that Sirius desperately misses James. (I also think that's the reason he left nothing in his will for Remus. He is so guilt-ridden by James's death that he left everything to Harry, not because Harry needs it, but because Sirius needed to do it.) I do see some evidence for Sirius being as much an emotional crux for Remus- particularly when he says "you should hear Remus talk about her!" about Umbridge. Remus ranting (in any form) is probably something very few people here, given what we see of him, and the fact he did rant to Sirius indicates that the emotional support goes both ways. And I think Remus's grief at Sirius's death (tempered because Harry's safety was a top priority) speaks for itself. Ship-wise, OotP is when I did start shipping them, and heck, partly because I thought it added some happiness to their lives. But again, that's definitely not a purely canon interpretation!
But yeah- totally made sense and I agree with pretty much everything you say. It just baffles me when people insist they weren't really friends, or didn't actually like each other. ::sigh::