Baby-Related Post

[lls_mutant]

Okay, this one is for the moms of boys and the all of two or three gentlemen who read this. The rest of you really, really, REALLY might want to skip this one. (Although if you have a thought, please feel free to share.)

And for those of you that are randomly reading this journal, I'm asking because we're having a baby boy and he's due in less than a month and hubby and I really need to decide this issue, not for any perverted reason.

Circumcision. We're clueless, especially since we both kind of feel like this is a very personal decision to the one person who doesn't get any say. I've decided to let hubby have the last word on it regardless, but does anyone have any thoughts, feelings, or facts about the matter? It doesn't seem like it's as crucial these days, and we aren't Jewish, so there's no religious implications or anything.

I know it's just one of those topics you don't discuss, and if anyone would prefer to comment anonymously please do so, but it's because people don't discuss it that we're completley clueless. Help?

ETA: After reading some stuff on the web, I am very, very, very quickly leaning further and further away from it. (Partly because I still think it's his body and he should have the choice to do what he will, and it doesn't seem like there's any medical basis for doing it.) But I'm still very interested in any thoughts in general.

Comments

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

I know I am neither, but I have young relatives that weren't. One is fine and the other needs to be circumsized because of some sort of infection.

I'll just say this: There is no medical necessity to have it done. There's no religious imperative, as you've stated.

Both of the young men claimed to have been glad to have made the choice themselves. It can impede sexual arousal since you are cutting away nerve endings.

I wouldn't do it myself. There is cleaning that you will have to teach him. Peeling back the foreskin to make sure it doesn't get infect, but it will be normal to him by the time he is older.

There's also a risk in doing it so young. There's been mistakes where the whole wee bit got disfigured. It's not common, but surgical mistake.

Plus they don't use any sort of anasthetic. They just lob the skin off. They may use a local, but they are too young for it to be painless. It is rather barbaric.

Leila

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

This was rather garbled. Sorry bout the bad grammar and spelling. I was distracted when I was writing. I was asking my mother, who is a nurse, about the medical necessity part.

[misscake]

This is a really hard decision to make. I didn't know for sure that I was having a boy until 10 days before he was born. My husband and I had talked about the pros and cons of it as well. I am not Jewish, but my husband is (although he's more of a cultural Jew than a religious, practicing Jew). In the end, we decided to do it so that he would "look like his dad." After all of the horror stories I was prepared for the worst. But he was okay when they brought him back; he wasn't crying or red in the face. His circumcision healed really well and it was not that hard to take care of. However, sometimes I do wonder if he'll be angry with us as he gets older or wish that we'd let him choose. Though, I really can't imagine a grown man voluntarily having a circumcision (unless it's for medical reasons).

I think it's just one of those really personal decisions you and your husband need to make together and not feel like you have to defend it to anyone. Good luck!

[medicinal-mirth.livejournal.com]

Both my boys were circumcised. My oldest, I was very torn about the decision. I left it up to my husband, who preferred we go through with it since he was circumcised himself. I'm not going to say it was a pleasant experience. I was with my son through the whole thing, and the one thing I wished was that when we had first discussed the procedure with the pediatrician, was that he'd been a lot more graphic about it. An anesthetic was used, but it was only topical and I have no idea how much pain Joey felt, but he cried and cried. He especially objected to being held down as well.

My youngest is also a boy, and again I was torn, but we had a much better pediatrician this time. She used a local anesthetic, which of course came in the form of a shot, and Danny did cry. During the procedure, however, he didn't cry at all. He looked bewildered and he struggled a bit at being held down, but other than that he was fine. After the procedure was over, he cried, and I suspect it was more from the stress of the situation.

Would I do it again? I don't know. Probably not. I researched the pros/cons beforehand and could never quite make up my mind whether I thought it was better to go ahead with it or not, so, like I said, I chickened-out and left it to my husband. Instinct tells me that more than likely I would not do it again.

Let's put it this way, by the time I was pregnant with my third and before we knew he was a he, I already had a girl and a boy, so I didn't care which sex this one turned out to be -- except for the whole circumsision decision. In that aspect, I had hoped for another girl.

Okay, this is getting long, sorry about that, but it is a tough and very personal decision. Decide what you think is best, and stick to your guns. Whether you have the circumsision done or not, it's you and your husband's decision and hopefully the two of you agree, of course.

I do remember talking to my mother about it, and when my brother was born -- and he's older than me -- she had no clue what circumcision entailed. They were still in the hospital when it was done and she wasn't with him and suddenly he simply had no foreskin. When I had my first boy, and I told her what he went through, she was fairly shocked. Yet, she still thought it was a good idea to have it done. I think that speaks to the cultural changes we've gone through the last 30 or so years. It isn't medically necessary, but it still is a personal (and still for some a cultural) preference.

It sure as hell is no fun to think about.

[(Anonymous)]

I decided yes on circumcision for my son (born in 1996) because I had been around several toddlers who had problems with not being circumcised and had to have it done later and it was torturous. When they did my son, they left a lot of skin there. So much that some thought he wasn't circumcised at all. In the end, it will just come down to whatever you feel is best.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Well, in the UK boys don't tend to get circumcised unless their religion demands it or there's some other overriding reason for it. I understand it's different in the States....

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

I was steered over here by a post from aome. We have a son who will be six next month who is uncircumsized and I'm still glad of the fact. We are atheists who are from Christian backgrounds, so there was no cultural imperative other than the general American mainstream to do it, and at the time my son was born our peer group was comprised of academics in Austin, so there was certainly no mandate in that social circle. I gave my husband the final decision but told him why I didn't like the idea, and I asked him to read some material before he made the final decision, but it didn't take long for him to decide against it. His original impulse was to have it done due to the "looks like dad", but the next day he was like, "dude, little boy penises do not look like grown men penises anyway - hello, size and hair!" and decided that particular reasoning didn't really hold for him, and that was pretty much it.

I don't have much more to add b/c it looks like we are thinking very much along the same lines, but I did just want to chime in and say that we made the decision you're considering now and have not yet had cause to regret it. I'd be happy to answer, like, any questions or talk about it further or whatever.

[minnow-53.livejournal.com]

As magic_at_mungo's says, it isn't an issue in England unless there are religious/medical reasons to do it. When my son was born the question simply didn't arise, and - touch wood - he seems to be doing fine. I feel it's a bit of an 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' problem. All boys are born with it, it's part of their anatomy, and so it seems reasonable just to leave it. But of course it is your decision.

^_^xx

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

As a couple of people haven't mentioned, circumcision is very rare in Britain, so it's only an issue here for fairly religious Jewish parents. It's a really big cultural difference, and I'm not sure why it exists, but there it is.

I agree with your point about it being your son's body, and there is something I find a bit worrying about having what is, in my opinion, essentially cosmetic surgery performed on someone who is unable to consent to it.

I can see your logic in wanting to let your husband have the final say, but I think you have to be completely happy with the decision yourself. It was never an issue for me as my only child is a girl, and it doesn't really happen here anyway, but I can't imagine allowing my child to undergo any medical procedure unless I was convinced it was the right thing to do.

Generally speaking, I would say the default position for any surgery has to be don't do it, and only change your mind if there are good reasons to do so. So I would say the starting point for circumcision should be an assumption not to do it, unless someone with a medical degree gives you a compelling reason why it's better to go ahead than to just leave it. There is always a risk, however minor, with any surgery, so why take that risk unless you have a good reason to do so?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the reply- especially the medical bit. That's actually really what I'm after: why should I do it? I read up on the cleaning, and it really doesn't sound all that complicated. They said even gentle water running does it- no need for anything fancy, and in fact some soaps could be irritants. (Kind of like douching, I imagine.)

Thanks!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Definitely a personal decision... it's just something we don't know much about! He's circumcised, but so's just about every American male born back then. Like formula feeding, it was the thing you do.

I've been looking around on the web, but so many of the sites I find are clearly anti-circumcision. Which is fine- but I want both sides of the story. I don't want the horror stories as much as the "regular experiences" like you're describing. (I find that when I hear horror stories, I obsess over them. And very often that's just not healthy- especially since I usually am!)

Thanks so much for your response!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It sure as hell is no fun to think about.

Amen!!!!! Thanks for your response- especially the emotional impact of it on the mother. Our big concern right now is we just don't really know a lot about it, and finding unbiased info is pretty difficult. I'm personally sort of leaning towards "no", and I suspect my husband might be, too. He is utterly dead set against ever getting a vasectomy, just because he doesn't want anyone with a knife near there. Understandable- I have an abject fear of needles myself, to the point where that's why I'm going to try for natural childbirth- I just don't want that needle in my back. (Although we'll see what I say when they offer it!)

Thanks so much for your response!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

See, that's exactly what I'm worried about- our son having problems and having to have it done later. Do you happen to know what sort of problems?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But that's exactly one of the reasons I'm leaning against it. They don't do it in Europe or most other continents, and it's becoming increasing less and less common in Canada, from what I understand. And these men seem to be fine, as far as I can tell. It seems like overall it's a cultural thing, and I'm rather against doing surgury just for a cultural imperative, unless he can elect to do it himself. ::sigh::

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks! This is just so much one of those subjects people don't talk about, and I wish they did.

The reason I even posted about it is that we just don't know. We know very, very little about circumcision, and if there's any real benefit to it or anything like that. Like you, we're both from Christian backgrounds, so we don't have a religious reason to do it. And to be honest, I don't really care about what a social circle thinks, because frankly, they shouldn't have that much interest in my son's genetalia ;) Your husband's reasoning about not looking like his dad anyway is a good one- I might have to mention that.

My biggest question by far has been is there any reason to do it that's NOT cultural, and I haven't really found a satisfactory answer to that. :P

Thanks again for your response!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yup- England and the rest of Europe (heck, most of the rest of the world) are my main reason for being dubious. All those men seem to be doing fine without being circumcised. And I agree with the if it ain't broke, don't fix it bit. I just don't know much about it in general- if there's serious health risks and stuff associated with not having circumcision done. It's kind of seeming like there's not.

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

The reason I mentioned the social circle is because my biggest concern in terms of cultural and social issues was whether he would be the only child who was like him no matter what we chose. And the values around us were all over the place, with everybody doing their own thing, and I found that very freeing in terms of making a decision. There IS no social norm anymore, and so yeah, in the absence of a medical reason, it starts to look more and more like elective cosmetic surgery on an infant. *shrug*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It's a really big cultural difference, and I'm not sure why it exists, but there it is.

I suspect it might have something to do with way back when when hygiene wasn't what it was today. Perhaps infections were more common back then? I know that's the reason the "don't eat pork" started. Aside from the fact it's an animal that eats waste, it was hard to explain to your average person about trichonosis, so it became a religious imperitave not to eat pork in order to protect the people. I wouldn't be surprised if circumcision has similar roots.

So I would say the starting point for circumcision should be an assumption not to do it, unless someone with a medical degree gives you a compelling reason why it's better to go ahead than to just leave it. There is always a risk, however minor, with any surgery, so why take that risk unless you have a good reason to do so?

That sums up how I seem to be leaning at the moment. What I've really been after are those medical reasons to have circumcision performed. I'm very uncomfortable with any sort of elective surgury even on myself, and in fact I'm not even very fond of piercing in general. (I don't object to people doing it, as long as they are old enough to consent to it. I just don't LIKE it for me- and that's kind of what makes me reluctant to have a boy circumcised. It IS his body.)

Thanks so much for the response!

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

The only people I know who have been circumsticsed have been Jewish. It's certainly not the norm to have it done just because. All the uncircumstancised men I've been with didn't seem to have a problem with not having it done.

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

I don't have any kids and I'm not a man, but I've read that there are some sexual nerve endings in the foreskin, and when I have a son (if I have a son) I'm not going to circumsize him. I figure if there aren't religious reasons involved, why bother?

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

Oh, P. S.: Back when I used to read Savage Love, someone wrote in with a question about circumcision, and Dan Savage was talking about when he and his boyfriend adopted a son and were trying to figure out if they should have him circumsized.

Boyfriend: If we don't do it, his penis won't look like his fathers'.
Dan Savage: How often do guys stand around comparing dicks with their dads?

Oh, and I looked into the whole cleaning thing; it really doesn't seem hard, just like the male version of women washing their outer genitalia.

[pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com]

We had our son circumcised. It's around 50/50 around here, so the "looks like Dad" thing was pretty much the deciding factor.

We also wanted him to be self-sufficient in cleaning his genitalia as early as possible. We used scented soap so that we could tell if he'd washed his hands for the first year after he started going to the bathroom on his own (i.e. until we were sure he was trained to wash his hands). I, for one, didn't want to have to have daily penis inspections until we were sure he got the hang of *that*. 8-)

[aome.livejournal.com]

How often do guys stand around comparing dicks with their dads?

Kids are often washed by their parents at the same time as parents (ie, son takes shower with dad, mom takes bath with kid, etc), or dad is demonstrating how to pee standing up, etc, so I think "comparing dicks with their dads" - really, comparing everything against their parents - is pretty common.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Cute icon :)

I'm not sure why bother- that's what I need to know. If there's a medical benefit to it, I'd be much more willing to consider it. But if there's not....

[momebie.livejournal.com]

There isn't a medical basis any more. We discussed it when I took Sexual Behavior, so I'm not an expert or mom or anything but I can throw out what the teacher said. He was against it. Because they used to do it because they thought foreskin was unclean or would lead to penile cancer or something and now they know differently. It can be gross, but only if you don't wash it properly, which isn't something that isn't hard to teach. But the real nixxer for him on his sons was that Dr.s can screw that one up pretty well and take off quite a bit more than they should have or cut the tip which can cause problems in function and get infected easily.