All Or Nothing

[lls_mutant]

All Or Nothing: A HP-related Shipping Rant Because I am Bored, and Quite Generic in General, and the Roles of Love And Relationships In Fiction Anyway.



So I'm sitting here in limbo, with the house clean and some writing to do and other than that, just waiting for my life to change and turn upside down. So, because I am bored, I am going to annoy you, my f-list and anyone who happens across this essay, with a little rant.

So I went over to FAP, and I was reading the "Fate of Slash Post-HBP" thread, which wonders about the effect that Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince will have on slash. As would be entirely expected, it degraded down to a Sirius/Remus discussion thread, because the only major slash ship that ever really believed they had a chance at canon confirmation was Remus/Sirius. I'd like to believe Harry/Draco fans knew that that would never happen, and most Snape/Lupin shippers seem pretty reasonable, and a lot of the other slash ships never remotely deluded themselves. So the Harry/Draco writers, the Snape/Harry enthusiasts, the Oliver/Percy crew... they continue writing happily because who ever cared about canon in the first place, so why SHOULD HBP have any effect? (Although I will admit: I can't stand Harry/Draco, and even I was beginning to wonder about Harry.) Anyway. Through the discussion, someone made the assertation that the events of HBP renders the relationship between Sirius and Remus down to casual sex, if you want to ship them, because their actions in Half-Blood Prince indicate that it can in no way be Deep And Passionate Love.

Now, I'm not interested in starting the "can it or can't it?" debate. Probably 80% of my f-list or people reading this like reading Sirius/Remus, and some of you don't, and there's even one or two of you who don't read Harry Potter fanfic at all. We've all been over this, and frankly, I think it gets boring for us all unless we're in the mood to debate fruitlessly. So that's not what I'm interested in. What I'm interested in is the perception that the relationship must be casual sex OR Deep and Passionate Love. I'm interested in this perception because it pervades fandom.

Now, I'm probably utterly preaching to the choir here. I suspect that the portion of fandom that believes in the all-or-nothing scenario tends to be young, and with a couple of exceptions every person that actively interacts with me seems to be over 20. Plus, I've either read your work and seen the complexities, or I haven't but we've discussed it and one of the reasons I can respect what you ship is you DON'T go for the all-or-nothing approach. But this still bothers me.

It's a common trend in fanfic. Love strikes, and when it does, it is not a gradual process. It's a lightning bolt that sets the lover on fire and consumes everything about them. (It's also a common trend in the Dragonlance series, which is like the ultimate fanfic where people actually got paid to write it, and is pretty crappy writing at times.) Love at first sight is common, and so is a sudden and intense love between friends. And once that love hits, that is the primary motivating factor in everything either person in that ship must do.

Come on- admit it. I don't care what you ship: Harry/Ginny, Remus/Sirius, Remus/Tonks, Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione... you've seen this played out in countless fanfics. Sometimes it's less blatant than what I'm describing here, but I'm willing to bet every last one of you- in every ship out there- has seen it.

Now, I've got a couple of problems with this. Some are personal, some are objective, and because I am bored as I said, and procrastinating doing any real writing, I am going to list my problems, one by one.

1.) Love at first sight is bullshit.

Okay, yes, I'm totally irritable these days, thus the profanity I've been tending towards.

This is one of those personal things. I fully do not believe in love at first sight. I don't believe you can look at a person and "just know." I DO believe that you can look at a person and, in some way, on some level, be so attracted that you want to get to know that person better, and that love can develop out of that. But love at first sight? No.

Part of this extends from my definition of love. Love is not something that is given because the lover has no reason. Love has standards. Love has reasons. We love the people we do because we see something in them that makes them worth loving. Some of these reasons are easy to define: we love a person because they are honest, or noble, or they have a great love of family, or some other characteristic that we as the lover has deemed important in our personal values. Some of these reasons are anectodotal and are based in our history: through something we did with that person, we came to understand, value, and trust them. We created a bond with them. And some of these reasons are beyond explanation: you could know two men who both have every trait you want and you have a long, close history with, but you love one romantically and the other inspires nothing like that in you. But all of these things take time. Love is partly a conscious decision. Love at first sight is not.

However, love at first sight is a common cliche, not just in the Harry Potter fandom, but in literature/fiction in general. But keeping it in Harry Potter, to be honest... it's really, really squicky to me, because for many of these couples, "first sight" was when they were 11.

And strongly related to #1:

2.) Love takes time and effort to develop.

This seems like pretty much the same point, and in many ways, it is. Love implies a deeper relationship and knowledge of a person that can only be gained through spending time with them. And it can't just be a casual "spending time". A certain level of trust must be established so both members of the relationship feel free to open up and expose what they may not otherwise confide.

You can know someone for a long time and still know very little about them. Think of your co-workers. Do you know what their home life is like? Where they went to school? What they wanted to be when they grew up? Are their parents alive or dead? What are some of their major tragedies and triumphs? What are their passions? What are their hobbies? I can't answer most of these questions about most of the people I worked with for two years, and we see that in the Potter-verse, too. It took Harry four years to learn about Neville's parents. The Harry-Neville friendship is one that didn't develop overnight, and only develops when Harry puts the effort and time into it. (And one thing I really like about JKR's writing- she really acknowledges this!)

But that leads me to my other point that expands on how love takes time and effort to develop. Even if we are friends with the person in general, that doesn't necessarily make a romantic relationship an easy leap. There can be a certain amount of distance in friendships, a lack of emotional intimacy that's not present in love. (Again, look at the Harry-Neville friendship and compare it to Harry-Ron.) One doesn't simply turn around and go from friends to Deep and Passionate Love with another person- that romantic love that develops out of a relationship also takes time. True, the process can be avrebbiated, but it can not be skipped altogether.

3.) Have you ever heard of dating?

I'm not talking about dates, per se. I don't really care what the details of dates are. Picnics or pool, study dates or Madame Puddifoots, aside from my general griping that I've never been out with a man who planned elaborate or "romantic" dates as a matter of course (and that two guys are much more likely to go play pool than they are to set foot anywhere NEAR Madame Puddifoot's), I'm not concerned with the details of dates. Rather, I'm concerned with the dating process.

What happens when you date someone? You see someone you like, be it a stranger you met at a party or in a class or at an Order meeting, or a friend you've known for a long time and are starting to look at differently. You arrange to get together sometime. You go out on a date. If you enjoy each others' company and that enjoyment is mutual, you go out on another one. And another one. At some point, you begin a physical relationship. You might go slow, taking until marriage to reach sexual relations, or you might sleep together on the first date. This is more likely a reflection of your values and sexual attitudes and attractions than it is an automatic reflection of love, but we'll get there in a minute. But as you continue to date, you continue to grow closer.

Inevitably, you begin to argue. Sometimes the arguments are frivolous, but many times, they are not. They are a way of sorting out how you relate to each other and how you cope with your differences in relating to people. A successful couple can navigate this territory. They may never agree, but they can accept that they won't. An unsuccessful couple will break up (hopefully).

In my experience, there seen to be several points in a relationship where arguments peak. One is at three months. This is when the infatuation has worn off and you begin to decide if you're going to give this a serious go. Another is at one year, where again, you are forced to decide if this is worth sorting some of these deeper issues out, or if you want to just move on. And then again at two years, where the expectation of marriage becomes an issue. Of course, these are generalizations. But each time you survive one of these milestones, the relationship deepens.

What does this mean? It means that a person's value to you is not a constant. I did not love my husband as much after three months of dating him as I did after a year, and I certainly love him much more now. A relationship is not an "on-off" switch, but rather more like a volume control.

These first three points, which are all tied closely together, are rarely shown in fanfic. I'm not sure if it's because we as a society (especially a female society) have bought into the "perfect storybook love" model of relationships, or if because there's a lot of writers out there that don't have the patience or the skill to pick up the nuances in relationships, or what. But it's a view I see reflected in fics far and wide.

4.) Dating other people before you find your One True Love is not only common, but can be a good thing. And you need not hate your exes.

It's a fact of life. Sometimes relationships don't work. And while yes, you have people out there willing to cheat and abuse and hurt, sometimes relationships don't work because you simply don't love each other enough. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And yet, exes are a rarity in fanfic.

How many fics have Remus Lupin living as a monk for the twelve years that Sirius was in prison? How many fics have Harry and Ginny living happily ever after forever, with Cho only being the heinous bitch that interfered in true love for a while? How many fics refuse to acknowledge that Tonks- a personable, social girl- might have had other lovers that she sincerely enjoyed?

How many fics acknoweldge that sometimes, love dies?

I don't need to see an ex in every fic. I really don't. Sometimes, there's just not room for one. Somtimes it's silly. Sometimes JKR hasn't left you room for an ex (especially if you're writing Harry/Cho or Molly/Arthur or something where it's obvious or implied that the couple got together at a very young age.) But the idea that love must be all or nothing does not allow for exes in the healthy sense of the word. You find your true love, and that is it. Everything else (if there was an everything else) is valueless.

This is silly, because if all goes well, we learn from our exes. Worst case, we learn what we don't want in a relationship. Best case, that ex helps us become who we are and we part on good terms. I have a two particular exes that I remember very, very fondly as guys who really helped me shape my life and my perspective on men. Neither worked out, no. One was my high-school boyfriend, and we dated for three months. I think part of why we broke up was he couldn't handle the pressure of dating me- we started dating shortly after my father was diagnosed with luekimia. (We dated all of three months.) And yet, despite the fact our romantic relationship didn't work out, he was still a huge support when my father passed away nine months later. It taught me that you don't need to be in love to care deeply about someone, and it taught me that people worth knowing will be there for you in times like this. It also taught me that friendship can be stronger than romance, and romance is not the be all and end all. The other ex was a guy I dated on the rebound from an ex I remember less fondly. The good guy and I went to different schools, and the relationship fell apart eventually. But again, very similar lessons, and we both danced at each other's weddings with nothing but happiness for the other person.

The fact that these relationships fell apart doesn't mean that they were valueless when I had them. The fact I am married now and in love also does not devalue those relationships. But more than that, in a fanfic frame of reference, the fact that these relationships existed and fell apart says to me that there are degrees of love. I loved both of these guys in some way, and still do. And yet, it's not the same as my husband. But God forbid you see any temporary relationships in fanfic, unless you need a villian. Then an ex can serve quite nicely.

5.) So you love someone. Great. That's wonderful. But it does not dictate your entire existance.

Finally, people love each other, and that will influence what they do. But not all other relationships drop off the face of the earth when you are in love. (Or at least, they shouldn't.) People in love still have best friends, parents, children, and other family and friends. And they still have themselves. They have pets, hobbies, careers, and ambitions. And depending on the needs of the moment, their love for their spouse/partner/whatever does not need dictate the actions they are taking.

Just because Harry hooks up with Ginny does not mean he does not love Hermione, or Ron. It does not mean that Ginny must be the number one priority in his life. (In fact, if you want to stay in character, she can't be. Voldemort is.) Just because you believe Sirius and Remus were sleeping together does not mean that Sirius can't have felt closer to James, who was like a brother. Likewise, the existance of these other bonds does not negate the importance of the romantic one. Harry loves Hermione dearly as a friend- but that does not mean he can't love Ginny in a different way. Sirius and James are like brothers, but that does not render their bonds with Peter and Remus as inconsequential. To do so actually makes the perceptions of relationships quite unhealthy.

Love is complicated, because PEOPLE are complicated. We all have diferent forces that pull at us. Love of job, love of self, love of family, love of friends, love of lover... sometimes they are complementary, sometimes they are not. Sometimes we need to make decisions and prioritize. And in fanfiction, when a relationship is reduced down to all or nothing, it loses the humanity of the characters that are involved in the relationship. It becomes sterile and bland and unrealistic and boring.

Anyway, it's almost lunch time, so I should stop preaching to the choir and go eat, so I can open some writing and get something productive done. Plus, I should do a load of laundry, at least. Anyway, this rant is over, yes, because I ran out of steam, but hey. It was fun.

I promise my next post won't be quite so bitchy :)

Comments

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

Excellent points, all around.

I'd just like to add, however, that these problems are in no way limited to fanfic. Lots of books and movies fall into the same stupid traps, with the same unrealistic consequences. limyaael has written some good rants about romances in fantasy literature, but they apply to any sort of literature (like all of her rants do): here, here, and here.

You need to stop going to FAP

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Fate of Slash Post-HBP" thread, which wonders about the effect that Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince will have on slash

The hell? People are still writing slash, and the H/D shippers are laughing, and I can't blame them.


But yeah, I agree with everything that you've said here in your post,especially this ;

And in fanfiction, when a relationship is reduced down to all or nothing, it loses the humanity of the characters that are involved in the relationship. It becomes sterile and bland and unrealistic and boring.

But the thing is, the reason why people don't do exes in fanfic, because people don't like reading OFCs. I know I don't, because 95 percent of them are badly done.

But for real though, the Remus/Sirius shippers need to stop it.

Stop it now.

Embrace it. Accept it. Live it.

Why would they believe that Rowling would make gay pairing canonically viable? I don't think so.

*sigh*

[elsie.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. And that's one reason that I don't crank out a whole lot of fic--I'm determined to include all of those complexities and realities in whatever I write, and that takes time and thought.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Just because you believe Sirius and Remus were sleeping together does not mean that Sirius can't have felt closer to James, who was like a brother.

Since you're ranting, I'm going to join in with one of my pet peeves. I HATE it when R/S shippers try to brush aside the importance of Sirius' friendship with James (and Remus' as well, although obviously it was much more important to Sirius). I've even read fics which say, not in so many words, 'James was Sirius' best friend, but it was really Remus he felt closest to' or some such, and it's such nonsense. It is based on this supposedly romantic notion that the person you are in love with has to be the be all and end all and the most important person in the universe, which simply isn't true. In fact, despite being a fairly to completely rabid shipper, I've always maintained that James was more important to Sirius than Remus, not least because Sirius needed a family (which James represented) more than he ever needed a boyfriend.

What annoys me even more is when people use the end of OotP, when Dumbledore says Sirius loved Harry most in the world, as an anti-R/S argument, which is just ridiculous. Because, duh, of course Harry had to come first--he was his godson! Sirius mightn't have been his actual parent, and may not have even acted very parentally (which isn't a word, but hey-ho) sometimes, but he still loved him as a parent would. I wouldn't respect Sirius as a character if he didn't prioritise the child for whom he acted (albeit imperfectly) in loco parentis over his boyfriend.

Meh, I'm not really adding anything here, but I felt the need to say it anyway.

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

Nicely said!

I've known people who have had that feeling upon meeting that they knew they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with that someone, but that is not the same thing as love at first sight, although there are people who presume that it is.

It's almost troubling that some people's definitions of love are so... blase and so 'all or nothing' extreme. It probably accounts for a substantial percentage of the divorce rate, you know? (Especially among celebrities. Heh.)

And you, missy, have got to curb your FAP reading because one of these days it's going to send you into an early labor!

[sasha-davidovna.livejournal.com]

Very well put. :) The problem certainly isn't limited to fanfic, quite the opposite actually, but I think the youth of a lot of fanfic writers exacerbates it. If you haven't lived through - and seen your friends and family members live through - a few successful and unsuccessful relationships, it's much easier to buy into ridiculous notions of all-encompassing love at first sight. To be sure, I've known some teenagers who "got it" better than many adults who ought to know better (I suspect the divorce rate is testament to the huge numbers of adults who never do figure it out) but they're few and far between.

Some day, I need to find a fandom that doesn't make me feel old at 23. :)

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

Lady, you need to stop going to FAP or it'll WARP YOUR KID!!!!! I don't lie, some doctors have classified FAP as a teratogenic substance.

Also? What about fics where characters kick each other's asses and realise by the end that they never want to see each other ever again? Cos I get that scary feeling with my fic.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I'll have to read those.

Actually, I was thinking about taking the rant and changing the slant of it from HP-shipping to movies (particularly romantic comedies), because it's been a while since I've written an article for MRFH, and I'd like to get one in before Toby's born.

It's funny, because the whole Dragonlance thing is really what got me going on this, and the comments in HP fandom just set the match to the kindling, as it was. :)

Re: You need to stop going to FAP

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I confess to getting a kick out of ranting these days. I have a lot of "I feel miserable" energy, and it's better vented at people at FAP than around the house! :)

You know, though, that's a good point about the OCs that I really didn't consider. I have to admit, my ex for Remus is one of my favorite OCs, but yeah- so often, OCs are scary or not well done. Especially when they're in shorter pieces and don't have the attention devoted to them.

I still maintain that the idea that Rowling might have made a canonically viable gay pairing before HBP is reasonable. (I just hate it when people say the idea was ridiculous.) But I agree- it's not likely now. Given that Remus/Tonks is established, it's too much focus to undo it to say that Remus/Sirius was the way it really was. But I could see something inconsequential like Ernie/Justin or Luna/Hannah if JKR wanted to- although it wouldn't really serve much purpose.

Oh well!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I figure I'm preaching to the choir on this one. Most people who read my stuff tend to be more into complicated dynamics. It's just nice to know there are others out there! :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I agree with every last thing you said, though :) I actually really find the Sirius-James dynamic fascinating, and it baffles me that there are people that find it necessary to explain it as sexual or romantic. I know people feel the same about Sirius/Remus, but to be honest, I feel that the distance between Sirius and Remus makes a romance more likely than does the incredible closeness between Sirius and James. (And, y'know, the whole Lily thing!)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should read at FAP more then! :) I'm about ready to have this kid, and he'd only be 10 days early....

I agree that it's troubling that people have such "all or nothing" versions of love, and I do think that's part of the reason for the divorce rate. People aren't perfect, and I think that people get frustrated when they discover that about their partners. It's too bad. ::Sigh::

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

All of limyaael's 'rants' (some of them are more like essays) are worth reading. Kind of dangerous, though, because every topic she posts give me about ten new plot bunnies for original stories.

It's a funny thing about romantic comedies. I don't mind watching them, and they can be a whole lot of fun, but the idea that anybody would take them as a realistic portrayal of love is just scary. (The genre as a whole, I mean -- there probably are semi-realistic ones out there, but they are very few and very far between.) Most romantic comedies couldn't be any more fantasy if they actually had unicorns and crystal castles and fairy godmothers. :)


And why are you reading Dragonlance?!?! Stop! Go read A Song of Ice and Fire instead. Help raise the standard of fantasy literature one novel at a time. Make the world a better place.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I'm actually thinking about taking this rant and adapting it to romantic comedies, so I can publish it on MRFH. It is kind of scary that we see this there as well.

It actually wasn't FAP that laid the foundation, but the portrayal of love in the Dragonlance series. It was very, very scary :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heh. I should consider.

Sadly, your scenario is far more likely than the all-or-nothing love scenarios I read in fanfics. I don't even mind love in fanfic... I just would rather it be realistic. ::Sigh::

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah, realistic romantic comedies are... rare. Very rare. I can think of two off the top of my head. There was definitely an element of realism to When Harry Met Sally, and I thought Keeping the Faith did a good job. But most of em.... Heh. But I still like watching them :)

And I'm reading Dragonlance because I take a bath every night, and I don't take decent books in the bath. That way, if I drop them, it's no big deal. I'll have to look into A Song of Ice and Fire. Maybe ask for it for Christmas! :)

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

That's really funny that you should say that, because the last time I remember reading a Dragonlance book was in a bath. (It was also when I was in high school, because my dad's old house was the last place I had a bathtub that was actually made for bathing and not just standing.)

Weird.

[marilla82.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with you on all of these points. (Thus proving the preaching to the choir comment.)

For a realistic movie, see Prime. I REALLY, REALLY enjoyed it. It wasn't the typical romantic comedy. It wasn't the typical ending. It was real. I don't want to say too much, as I am afraid I'll give it away. :)

i don't think rowling would have done

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

because the US is her main market, and her books were already accused of leading children to the joys of witchcraft. I don't think that she'd have pushed it, to be honest. I don't think she's as edgy as people credit her with being.

It wouldn't have killed her to leave Remus alone though, he needed a friend, not some pushy broad who wanted to make an issue out of what they were. But that's all i gotta say about that.

Re: i don't think rowling would have done

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

In which case, wouldn't it indicate that there's a specific purpose for R/T in book seven? Otherwise I don't think it would have been included at all.

My ponies to back:

*A repeat of the Remus-Sirius friendship breakdown, suspicion and 'betrayal'.
*A repeat of Alice and Frank Longbottom.
*Tonks is really Regulus Black.



Oh like you weren't thinking it too.

Tonks is RAB?

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Wha'? Well, now that is interesting, him dressing up in drag all this time and Tonks as Regulus with Remus? Oh well, I've read fanfic, it doesn't matter.

In which case, wouldn't it indicate that there's a specific purpose for R/T in book seven? Otherwise I don't think it would have been included at all.

One would hope so, but Rowling has a way of dropping plots and characters when they don't suit her anymore, like the house elf issue.

Book 7 has a lot of issues to be going on with, so... I don't know. It would be tempting to just pair them up as an established couple and focus on Harry's battle with his Inferni'd parents, because you know that's going to happen.

*A repeat of the Remus-Sirius friendship breakdown, suspicion and 'betrayal'.

Titillating, but I shan't get my hopes up. I've been burnt by too many comics verse writers when I was growing up.

But that's a terrific plot bunny, please don't make me write it.

Don't. Let. Me. Write. It.

*A repeat of Alice and Frank Longbottom.

Oh, I'd hope not! They may not be my favourite characters, but to criucio them to the point of mental incapacity, that would be too cruel. Even though, the Death Eaters need to be a bit more proactive. A crucio or a couple of imperious curses will do nicely.

You really didn't feel the press of death in HBP (not as much as I thought we would have) because everyone knew that Dumbledore would die, and the other deaths were done 'off page' as they were.

Well, we will see, if there's something to R/T more than say 'all we need is love!' I'll be the first one to say 'JK, let's not fight anymore' because I'm like that.

WRIET EET

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

Or else I make you read the scenes that got cut from Loneliness.

Resplendent with:

*The scene where he grabs her in a manly fashion and says 'Dammit, Tonks, I really do love you!'
*Her crying in the rain
*Him writing her a romantic poem
*Her promising to turn into Sirius for him.








psych.