Of Shoeboxes and Cassie Claire

[lls_mutant]

Subtitled: Why Should I Care About Cassie Claire?

I have a point. Really.

I've been thinking, okay? (If I was gonna rip off snorkackcatcher, I'd add "A dangerous past time, I know" and cite it.) But seriously.

There's all the drama about Cassie Claire, and while on the one hand I think plagiarism is anything but funny (especially when it happens to someone you know), I also think that there's a bit of... I don't know... a lot of grey area here.

Where do you draw the line?



Now, I am all for the occasional pop-culture reference in fanfic. Please tell me anyone who reads Accidentally In Love spotted that I didn't come up with Frank Longbottom's line "Laugh it up, Fuzzball." (And if you don't know where that's from, please turn in your Geek Membership at the nearest desk.) I have a line that's directly ripped off Serenity in AIL 12. ("Yes, tell us again," Peter said, joining them. "And start with the part where you three got bailed out by two pregnant women, because that's never getting old." as opposed to Wash's line "Yes, tell us again. And start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90-pound girl, because that's never getting old.") I hadn't planned on citing it, because you're not supposed to think it's me writing that. You're supposed to say "hey, look! That line is from Serenity! Hehe, aren't I cool and clever that I caught that!"

I've never read the Draco trilogy, and I don't really have a huge desire to. But I've used lines from The Very Secret Diaries in my MRFH reviews, either again assuming people will get it (one of my ratings was- "They're right- Sam will kill you if you try anything"), or in the viewing of FotR, I did actually mention the Diaries by name. (And if you go over to the Forum, somewhere, someone mentioned they knew exactly what I was talking about and much squeeage resulted.) Hmmm. The point? I don't follow Cassie Claire enough to really be making a monologue about that.

So what am I monologuing about? Grey Areas.

The Shoebox Project and Other Fic-like Things.

Today, someone on my f-list admitted that she isn't crazy about the shoebox_project. This resulted in a lot of the rest of the people on my f-list saying "me, too!" A common complaint is that we don't like the characterization of Remus- a characterization that has proliferated fandom.

There's a lot about Shoebox that has caught on in fandom itself. In fact, I'd say Shoebox is the most influential fanfic in my sector. Drives me nuts, personally, because I don't agree with a lot of their characterizations, but hey. So is that plagiarism?

Let's say it's not even intentional. Let's say an inexperienced R/S-er reads Shoebox and it sticks in her brain. (This is not helped by all the Shoebox-inspired fics out there.) She begins to believe that certain aspects of that are canon. (And hey- isn't fanfic itself plagiarism in its own way?)

Now, I'm not remotely saying that this is on par with lifting whole sections of text and claiming them as your own. I'm not even saying it's on par with lifting the entire introduction of someone's SAE paper and rearranging the text so it looks a little different but not changing the actual writing. (Not that I'm referring to anything specific here...) But I am saying this is a gray area, and I wonder how the Shoebox girls feel about seeing their characterizations in every fifth fic.

But then. Isn't it possible that someone could reach the same characterization conclusion on their own? How do you know it's not a coincidence. For example, I write 1970s/early 80s Kingsley Shacklebolt with an Afro. (Heck, I sort of write him as Shaft, which again, how legal is that?) Now, let's face it. Deciding that Kingsley might have had an Afro in the 70s isn't exactly the most creative and brilliant idea I've ever had. If copperbadge, whom I'm fairly certain has never read my stuff, suddenly started writing Shaft!Kingsley, is he ripping me off? I seriously doubt it. Or if I see another researcher!Caradoc Dearborn or Werewolf!Uncle Alphard. (Frankly, if I saw more of the second I'd be delighted.)

Never mind that this is all fanfic and the entire legal context is really shaky anyway. For the record? Well written fanfic that is deeply integrated into the world the author has set up is very, very hard to translate into something non-plagiarized. pfrsue and I have tried. Let's just say the plot is REALLY different than it was as a fanfic.

Homage vs. Spoof vs. Rip-off

I was watching Disney's version of The Hunchback of Notre Dame the other day. And in one scene, the gargoyle Laverne (whom I am sure was a major presence in Hugo's novel) waves at the pigeons and says "Fly, my pretties, fly!" as the Wicked Witch music plays.

Homage, spoof, or rip-off?

I'm reading a Terry Pratchett novel and I come across words lifted from Shakespeare. In fact, the entire plot is lifted from Shakespeare (although quite twisted).

Homage, spoof, or rip-off?

The concept of a normal man being revered as a God has been done how many times? Road to El Dorado? Guilliver's Travels? (Maybe?) Jaynestown?

Homage, spoof, rip-off, or re-exploring a well-worn theme?

Jason Fox builds a snow man that has a cannon ball shot through it. That's a rip-off. He adds a snow Calvin and Hobbes. It becomes an homage.

Granted, these are pretty lame examples, really. They've also been vetted by the legal process. I wouldn't actually call any of them plagiarism. I just felt like pointing that out- that an hommage is essentially legalized plagiarism with tongue planted firmly in cheek. (And everyone knows you're doing it.)

Do I have a real point, or am I just running my mouth because I feel really lousy and don't want to do housework? More the second.



In the end, plagiarism is bad, and you all know that, so I really don't need to soapbox about that. But there are interesting grey areas. And now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

(That's a homage, by the way.)

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Heh, the Shoebox characterisations may be fanon, but it's your fic and history I've been guilty of confusing with canon...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heh. thanks :)

[lady-nimua.livejournal.com]

personally, I think it's a bit sad that all of cassie's good and funny lines are not actually hers. but at least she credit those who created them.

hmm...I have on my computer a cassie clair icon and I really wish I could use it right now. *sigh*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I agree that it's rather sad. In addition to never having read the trilogy, I've never watched Buffy, so I wouldn't get it anyway.

I suck :)

[lady-nimua.livejournal.com]

it's okay. I never really seen Buffy either, and only flipped through one of the Draco trilogy a little.

[nassima.livejournal.com]

I saw the discussion about Shoebox and I couldn't agree more!

As for what you're saying here about plagiarism, I think that the grey area is smaller than this. Happily, the international copyright laws (that the USA recently adopted) accept short quotations (I think there's even a definition of what is "short", though it's where good lawyers could enjoy themselves...). That, together with the right to write satires and parodies, is what makes Pratchett's stories perfectly legal. That's not so much the Shakespeare satire that could be dangerous if it weren't the case, but all the plotlines and even the names and situations that are borrowed to other contemporary authors n- to make fun of it (such as the Pern dragons in an early novel, and many many other references).

Because of this parody right, the Very Secret Diaries could even get published! As was this unfunny LOtR parody ,Bored of the Rings (not sure of the title).

However, all of these are very different from building a story from pages and pages ripped off the work of other authors - which, If I understand, is what CC did. But as I'm really NOT interested at all in Draco, and never followed Buffy nor am interested in doing so, I don't think I'm ever going to verify!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Amen on the last paragraph, and we actually have Bored of the Rings in this house somewhere, but I'm not sure we've ever read it.

That's interesting about the right to write satires and parodies. I assumed it was there (and I don't consider it plagiarism- I guess my point was where is the line between satire and plagiarism?), but I never knew it was a formal law because I know very little about law (except things like obey the stop signs and don't kill people).

Which of Terry Pratchett's novel references Pern dragons? I adore Pern (my first fandom!), and maybe I just missed it????

[aome.livejournal.com]

It's stuff like this that makes me feel woefully under-read (even though I've read lots!) or under-fandomed or something.

a) I'm an S/Rer who has never read Shoebox (although I've heard of it) and wouldn't know a Shoebox-characterization if it bit me. Er, so to speak. ;)

b) I miss pretty much all the supposed-plagiarisms in CC's fics because I'm not remotely familiar with the fandoms/worlds she's quoting from. No Buffy, no ... whatever. And I suppose it's people like me that makes the plagiarism-accusers so mad, because I'm attributing "cold-blooded piece of toast" (for instance) to her, unless someone points out otherwise. On the other hand, requiring footnotes would take the fun out of reading. I haven't read the last three chapters of DV and thus don't know what she did or didn't cite, even in general terms. All I'm hoping is that she at least stuck to FA's current guidelines of "75% of the material must be original".

It gets hard, however, once you start quoting something that has made it into popular culture. Google has become a verb, but you don't see people putting TM (or, often, even capitalizing it) in use. Yes, everything had an original source, and I mean no disrespect to that concept, because I sure know how I feel about 'my' stuff. But, at the same time, once it becomes thrown around like "Where's the beef?" or something similarly widespread, is it still considered plagiarism to use it? Where do you draw the line?

[aome.livejournal.com]

PS: That's twice today that I've seen you mention feeling lousy. :( Are you sick or just having a rotten day?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But, at the same time, once it becomes thrown around like "Where's the beef?" or something similarly widespread, is it still considered plagiarism to use it? Where do you draw the line?

Exactly, and much more succinctly put than what I was trying to say. I mean, how many people bandy about "Luke, I am your father," or "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die"? Especially in fanfic, where it's all not for profit anyway.

And yeah- sick. Not horribly, but a sore throat and exhaustion. Not helped by the fact Toby has the same thing :P I gave him decongestant tonight, so hopefully he'll sleep lots and get better! (And I can sleep lots and get better.)

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a grey area. Even though I don't read in that fandom, I can't imagine how many PotC fics have "But why is the rum gone?" jokes in them. But what's the difference between that and a cliche? You know?

Incorporating a joke or a description even - a few lines here or there, sure. But to take several paragraphs of text or dialogue from a movie/tv show and just change the names or dates or places? No. It's why even paraphrasing without citing is considered plagiarism in academic arenas. Or how 'copying' similar chord progressions in a song are considered so in music. (George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" and "One Fine Day" I think it was, come to mind)

But how do you draw the line? X amount of nicked quotes per X number of words/pages written? It's very shaky. And there's definitely a difference between homage, parody, satire, being clever and pop-culturish, and ripping off.

The problem with cassie is that she didn't attribute and cite her (apparently extensive) quotes or her long passages nicked from Pamela Dean until AFTER she was confronted and called on it, and she claimed that she didn't realize the passages were Dean's, claiming she had them written down from ages ago and thought they were her own. Whatever. I haven't read DT and I certainly wasn't there. That's all heresay.

We all nick things on occasion for fanfic. For the average fanfic writer, I think it's more a matter of how often and how extensively, and is it done with the intent to pay homage or to pass it off as your own wit. And that is much harder to discern.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But how do you draw the line? X amount of nicked quotes per X number of words/pages written? It's very shaky. And there's definitely a difference between homage, parody, satire, being clever and pop-culturish, and ripping off.

Yeah, see this part is more what I was interested in. From what I understand, a lot of the stuff with Cassie's stuff is cut and dry. This bit- where we all do it every now and then (or a lot of us do)- is more what interests me :)

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

*loves icon like crazy*

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

Hm. I feel I may take a rather harsher line on matters. I do tend to cite pop-culture references, simply because I don't assume that everyone will get them. (My geek membership card is in the post, btw--I've not a clue where the fuzzbox thing comes from. And I've never seen Serentiy either.) I tend to worry about people not getting things a lot, particularly as a Brit writing in an American-dominated fandom--I'm never sure what people will recognise and what will have everyone outside the British Isles (and quite a few within) blinking and going 'bzuh?'

The first fic I posted at FA appropriated a joke from, appropriately enough, Blackadder, which I altered only slightly. (In the fic Sirius says, 'Naturally, it came as something as a shock--after all, it's not every day you wake up to discover you're a screaming bender with no more right to live on god's clean earth than a weasel,' which is barely a whisker away from the original, 'It isn't every day a man wakes up to discover he's a screaming bender with no more right to live on God's clean Earth than a weasel. Ashamed of yourself?') I had no idea how many people would recognise it, and I cited it in the disclaimer, partly because I didn't want people who didn't recognise it to think I'm a comedy genius on a par with Curtis and Elton (alas, I'm not) and partly because I didn't want anyone who did to think I was stealing. Quotes or near quotes are best cited, I think, although I sometimes don't bother these days myself, out of laziness. (Clearly I am a paragon of writerly virtue and aptly qualified to speak on this subject. Ahem.)

I see what you're saying about characterisation, though, and I think style is possibly a grey area as well. The style of my comedy fics draws heavily on any number of traditions of British comedy, like Alan Coren, PG Wodehouse and, yes, Blackadder (except, you know, not so good, which is why they're all famous and I'm not). It's generally not copying, mostly because the styles and comedic devices I use have become so widespread in comedy that it's hard to know sometimes where things began. How many fics to you see that use Random Capitalisation at odd junctions for Comedy Purposes? I'm willing to bet a fair few of the authors themselves don't know it all goes back to Sellar and Yeatman's seminal 1066 and All That. (Read the quotes on the second review to see what I mean.) A lot of these little quirks and general ways of phrasing (as opposed to specific phrases) become so absorbed in popular culture it's no longer possible to cite them accurately.

And hey- isn't fanfic itself plagiarism in its own way?

Absolutely not--plagiarism is an attempt to pass off other people's work as your own. By definition, fanfiction isn't plagiarism, because the very fact that you're playing in someone else's sandbox is the starting point. The point when it becomes a grey area is when works that are arguably fanfiction--from The Wide Sargasso Sea or Rosencratz and Guildenstern Are Dead to Bridget Jones's Diary--are produced and marketed as original fiction. Internet fanfiction is always acknowledged as such, so I don't think we need to worry about falling into that trap.

And now I've rambled and gone off at tangents, so I'll stop. ;D

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

"Laugh it up fuzzball" is from the original Star Wars trilogy :)

You know, I never considered that people might not recognize certain things because of where they are. Perhaps it's because I'm an American, and like most Americans, I automatically put everything in my frame of reference, but I think more likely it's because I assume everyone who likes Harry Potter must like certain other things as well. Okay, and I assume EVERYONE knows Star Wars ;)

It's generally not copying, mostly because the styles and comedic devices I use have become so widespread in comedy that it's hard to know sometimes where things began.

Yeah, and that's what I wonder about, and why I would never point and say "Shoebox ripoff!" loudly. I think that people do absorb some things subconsciously.

I have a few favorite authors, and for a while (when I was running my engine and could read or write) you could tell exactly which author I'd been reading most recently before I'd written a snippet. It was kind of annoying, actually. :) But I do think people sort of soak these things up. I just find it rather interesting :)

[maglors-finch.livejournal.com]

The point when it becomes a grey area is when works that are arguably fanfiction--from The Wide Sargasso Sea or Rosencratz and Guildenstern Are Dead to Bridget Jones's Diary--are produced and marketed as original fiction

Legally, it's is not a grey area if the author of the original has been dead for seventy years or more (copyright expires after seventy years). One - IMO very good - definition of fanfiction is: fiction derivative of copyrighted texts.

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

I don't know Cassie Clare (Claire?) from a bar of soap, but I would say there is a distinct difference between an acknowledged quote and plagiarism. A homage is also different - is knowledge of the original required to fully enjoy the homage? If so, it's not plagiarism. For one thing, it's a riff on the original ideas, not a straight-out retelling. And even a re-telling has the all-important "re-" part: there's original content there and the interplay between the original and the source is half the fun.

I would also say there's a distinct difference between plagiarism and unoriginality, but I think to call fanfic (even badfic) plagiarised is not really correct. Without that original component (even in "OMG! Romeo and Juliet is so like H/D, so I'm writing it!) it's not fanfic.

But all this might be because I adore footnotes and metatextual commentary. Seeing an acknowledged quote or an aside about characterisation or history makes me very happy.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I would also say there's a distinct difference between plagiarism and unoriginality

Oooh, now that's summing it up in a nutshell! Thank you :)

Good point about the homage, as well, and needing to know the source. (I'm a science person, so a lot of the shades of grey here are not in my areas of expertise ;) )

Thanks for commenting! :)

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

It really depends. There's a difference between having a throwaway line to a film or book that you love in your fic - I've had Remus bastardise a line from My Fair Lady or having a charatcter read a book that you like. That's OK, in my head. It's like having Peter being a Dr Who fan or Remus being a fan of Star Wars.

The lifting word for word, which Cassie is meant to have done (having never read any of her stuff, I wouldn't know whther she did even if it came up and bit me on the arse) is different because that's just copying and if I was doing that in academic essay, I would expect to have my arse seriusly kicked and to fail.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oh, there's no question about lifting word for word being wrong! And that's no fun to discuss ;) I was more interested in the grey areas- lifting individual lines. Esepcially if it's meant to be more of a joke. I mean, if I took a line from a show and someone complimented it and I just said "thanks!", that would be bad. But if I said, "hehe, I was hoping someone would catch that!", I think that's a different story.

[magic-at-mungos.livejournal.com]

Then in that case, I think it depends how often an individual line is lifted. If it’s one or two lines in a chapter or indeed an entire fic (i.e. anything over ~2,000 words) and you did say you wanted to see who caught the reference, then that’s cool. But if you tried to claim it as yours, or failed to say that it was someone else’s then that’s something completely different.

I’m finding it hard to articulate how and where I would draw the line, as it’s a gut feeling more than anything.

[cristix.livejournal.com]

Well, I have been meaning to say something on the matter for several chapters of shoebox project now.

but when I want to post a reply there are already tens of pages in front of me of intelligent comments such as "yey" and "yay" and "wonderful" and "I want to have your babies", and on one hand I have the feeling that my comment will not reach the ears of the writters, and on the other hand I think "why bother".

And the last chapter, seemed to be only slightly better in the way that Remus seemed only 99% a moron and not 100% like in the other chapters.

Anyway I am extremely puzzled by the fact that the authors really think that they do a wonderful job. And I am thinking " what kind of books have they read?" Did they read the same Harry potter books like we have? Cause in this case I do not understand. Remus in the books is one of the strongest characters. And he is pretty confident, and he is a man, he is not a whinning emotionally-cripled person like in shoeboxproject.

Anyway, I think a lot of characters enjoyed the characterization and followed it even if without knowing, in their own fics. Which is a pitty.

Under these circumstances, thank God for the canon, where Remus is tough and can handle anything and anyone from Snape to Sirius's moods, from the naughty ghost to Greyback.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heeee. Actually, I agree with you 100% about Remus's characterization. I think the quality of writing is very high, and the art is fabulous, but to me, that person is not Remus Lupin. I guess there's a lot of leeway, because we know so little about young Remus and so many traumatic things happened between then and present day, you can make an argument that he changed a lot. But yeah, it's a characterization that I just don't like. But to each his own, I guess!

[cristix.livejournal.com]

yes, actually the fic is very good if you consider that Remus is not Harry potter Remus.

And shoebox Remus is pretty consistent with himself and the arc of the character is pretty good, but it is not Harry Potter Remus.

And I also have a problem with the language sometimes. Probably because I am not a native English speaker but I think that the language is sometimes too complicated; great things can be achieved sometimes even through a more simple language.

Anyway, the idea is that we do not know much about young Remus, but what we see is not an emotionally crippled person, or a moron. Yes, he does not react in the Pensieve scene, but the scene before that, when he jokes with his friends, does not show a) a bery bookish person; he doesn't worry about his exam like Peter does and b) a whinning character. he is pretty confident and funny and not begging for anybody's afection. And he seems to communicate well enough with his friends.

I don't know why people prefer fics where Sirius is the upper hand, and remus the one taken under protection by Sirius, or the one to look after, or the weakest of the two.

Anyway, if we separate shoebox project from canon, it is very good. Otherwise...

But I think I will make courage and I will post a comment on the writer's page. It's better for them to have a different view, I guess.

When can we expect the next chapter of AIL? a little, little preview in the meantime, perhaps? :)

[maglors-finch.livejournal.com]

If you're writing fiction, attributing is optional, I'd say, as long as you don't quote more than one or two lines. It seems to be common practice in postmodern texts anyway. When I did it, in another fandom, I used to add footnotes to give the sources of such quotes, but some people thought this was ridiculous and/or pompous. (Whatever you do, there's always someone who complains.)

As for Shoebox Project, they didn't invent Wimp!Remus. That characterisation existed before OotP (though OotP definitely seems to have sealed it), and I've read fics with Remus as a crybaby long before the Shoebox Project started. If anyone claims otherwise, their memory must be very short.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

(Whatever you do, there's always someone who complains.)

True enough!

Oh, I know SBP didn't invent Wimp!Remus (although I wasn't in fandom before SBP). Any time you have a slash pair, some writers are going to feminize/whimpize one of the characters, and Remus seems to be the lucky winner. But from most reports, SBP really popularized this characterization. I think people read it, like it, and it inadvertantly slips into their heads as canon- especially since we have so little canon on the younger versions of the marauders.

Ah well :)

[(Anonymous)]

I wonder why exactly there are more fics showing a weak Remus after OOTP? Adult remus is nothing but strong and confident in that book.

And young Remus seems to be ok, as well. Where do all these bookisheness and weakness comes from?

I just hope that in HBP Remus will kick serious a... maybe after that we shall see a more appropriate characterization of Remus in fandom. But by that time it may be too late.

[maglors-finch.livejournal.com]

I wonder why exactly there are more fics showing a weak Remus after OOTP?

My answer would be: the Pensieve scene, interpreted without putting Remus's behaviour in its proper context.
But if I'd been in his shoes, deeply grateful toward my friends because of something they'd done for me, I wouldn't criticise them in public either, even though I had the authority to do so. If that makes me a wimp, so be it.

[snorkackcatcher]

I must admit, I had to look up the 'fuzzball' line before it dawned on me where it came from and therefore why it was funny used in this context. (Not really a huge SW fan.)

One of these days, I'll have to read beyond the first three parts of Shoebox. The one with all the images of passed notes put me off, because they were taking forever to download (possibly a slow server at their end, the images weren't that big), and the hints of 'multimedia' later on were not a selling point for a dialup user.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

You're a computer programmer and you're not a big Star Wars fan? There's something wrong with that. How dare you defy the stereotypes??? :) (I actually worked with a girl that had her Masters in a science program and had never even SEEN Star Wars. We teased her mercilessly, but to this day I still wonder how that's possible, especially since she was slightly older than me.)

I can see where images would put a dial-up user off! I love the art that goes with Shoebox project. I don't bother much with the notes, but the art is something I really enjoy.

I'd love to redo Mentors as a multimedia, but my handwriting is atrocious, and no one would ever be able to read it :)

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Dropping in a little late (and trying to avoid garage sale prep so I know how you feel)...

Please count me in as one of those not-fans of Shoebox. :-) It's not bad, really, but it's only one possible story of the Marauders and of R/S, not necessarily the one I agree with or even think happened.

Isn't it possible that someone could reach the same characterization conclusion on their own? How do you know it's not a coincidence.

Certainly! I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case. I don't think using the same character archetype is plagiarism. Copyright protects only the expression of an idea, not the idea itself. So there can be more than one bookish!Remus portrayal in fanfic as long as they're recognizably different. Plagiarism is much more than appropriating aspects of character or using the occasional pop-culture quote. It's the line-by-line style-stealing that tips a reader off, a la Cassie Claire, or Kaavya Viswanathan's "How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild and Got a Life", or some of the authors on my f-list who've had their works plagiarized recently. :-(

(Of course, it's also possible for someone to reach the same conclusion based on reading Shoebox-inspired fic, not realizing that the source of characterization indeed did come from Shoebox. Then again, I don't think that's plagiarism unless the author deliberately lifted specific lines/styles without attribution.)

Bottom line: attribute, attribute, attribute, and if there's any uncertainty, attribute.

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

A common complaint is that we don't like the characterization of Remus- a characterization that has proliferated fandom.

*glomps you* Remus in SBP drives me crazy. I keep wanting to slap him upside the head.

Man, this whole plagiarism (OR IS IT? [/quibbler]) scandal thing is giving me a headache. Hopefully soon the fandom will go back to yelling about Ginny or whatever. ;)