Quick thought

[lls_mutant]

You know, JKR was really, really, really, really cruel to Remus this round.

I mean, really.

Did she really think about what she was making him do in this book?

I've started writing it for the Remus/Sirius --> Remus/Tonks fic I'm working on, and WOW. All I can say is, after putting him through this, if Tonks makes him happy, good. The poor guy needs SOMETHING- even if it's a crappy hospital scene and a hand holding.

Seriously- and I say this as the highest compliment, as pfrsue can attest to- JKR is a psychotic bitch.

Comments

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

Ugh! I can't believe you've crossed the fence. *sigh* There's other ways to make Remus happy, you know. They're called AU... ;)

[nassima.livejournal.com]

Why AU? There are also the mad resurrection fics of doom (either seventh year or post-series), where, of course, Tonks doesn't hold a change against Sirius :D

Cause really, would Tonks make Remus happy? I don't want to think so ;)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heh. I wouldn't say I've crossed the fence. I still hate the pairing. :) But since JKR seems determined to make this hideousness canon, and I want to read book 7 without puking because I want to find out what happens to Harry, I suppose I should accept it at some point.

Mind you, I can't bring myself to actually write het smut for Remus, and the best parts of this fic focus on his grief for Sirius and the werewolves, whom I'm having WAY too much fun with.

But if I were writing the series, at this point I'd have Harry and Remus go on a quest through the land of the dead with Sirius as their guide, and when the time came to go back, they'd find that only one of them could and Remus would smile at Harry and say he'd rather stay here anyway as he took Sirius's hand....

Gods, there's some melodrama for you! :)

[nassima.livejournal.com]

Well, if you remove Harry's story and retell yourself the story of the Marauders as a whole, there's not much pause in the tragedy, don't you think?

James' parents? Dead even before their son died at 22.
Lily? Rejected by (a part of) her family because of her 'freakishness"
Remus? Bitten because of the political positions of his father, without any family or friends close enough to help him after 22. Had three friends, lost them all. Lost the one he loved more (oh yes) not only once, but twice. And I can't help but think that Remus is so used to see Sirius escape from anything, his parents' house, Azkaban... that there's still a small corner of his heart where he hopes Sirius will escape from the veil, too...) Once left alone without friends and without the possibility to get a real job, accepts a spy role that confronts him to the guy who's responsible of his condition.
Sirius? Left his family around fifteen, lost his brother, took the decision that killed his best friend and put him in the worst possible prison for twelve years, escaped only to get imprisoned again in a nightmarish house and die.
Wormtail? Lost friends and honour all that made him human because of what? Fear?

So I'd say it's not only during HBP!

And as it seems that you're going to really make that Remus/Tonks, I may well try to write something showable with that S/R -> R/T -> R/S, though I'm really not much of a fanficcer, just because I really feel the need ;)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Eek! I'm inspiring people! :) Yeah, except for this one, and maybe one other (explanation in a second), no more Tonks fic from me. At least, no more HBP Tonks fic.

The other one I keep getting in mind... well, I'm a country fan, and there's this song called "Homewrecker." There's lyrics in it that go "you can take it somewhere else or we can take it outside." It's so tempting to write Sirius and Tonks during OotP, with Remus utterly oblivious.

And yeah- the story of the Marauders is really, really depressing. Which is why I should start buying stock in Kleenex before I finish Accidentally In Love!

Sirius/Tonks?

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Aren't they... cousins? Also, with Tonks being away from this particular family, she wouldn't really feel anything towards Sirius (I just don't understand the pairing) and they never shared any page time during OoTP. I'd buy the Remus/Tonks over Sirius/Tonks to be honest. Apart from Remus and Harry, no-one seemed to pay Sirius much attention.

Re: Sirius/Tonks?

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, no, no! :) Sorry- that didn't come across clearly. Sirius and Tonks, as in Tonks flirting with Remus and Sirius's reaction to it, not Sirius/Tonks! But what I was thinking was something where Tonks is trying to flirt with Remus, and Sirius getting very jealous and annoyed because he's in a relationship with Remus. And doing the whole thing from Sirius's point of view, where he's polite to Tonks in public, but behind the scenes, watch out, because he's ticked. Plus that elegant brand of sarcastic cutting down that he could do at the dinner table and only a few people would really catch on.... (but is so hard to write.) And of course, Remus being utterly oblivious to them sniping at each other, because they're both hiding it from him.

Yeah, Tonks/Sirius is just... ew.

Oh that would be fun

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

It really would. But it would take a deft hand to write though, and I could see Remus being really clueless, because well... he's with Sirius (that's just my bias speaking, don't mind me).

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

This is one of the reasons I'm pretty sure that Remus will live. Killing him now would be...well, overkill.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Actually, that's what I thought when Tonks appeared attached to him. "At least a love interest might keep him alive!"

[marilla82.livejournal.com]

nassima and thistlerose both hit it on the head. Remus' life is one huge tragedy. I've had the same thought about JKR. She says Remus is one of her favorite characters, but she's horrible to him. Although, I guess all the things he's gone through build character. I do hope that he makes it through the series.

IF JKR brings Sirius back and kills Remus off, she WILL earn the title of "psychotic bitch" -- meant in the highest regard. Really.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

THAT would be cruel. Very, very, very, very, very wonderfully cruel.

I doubt she'll do it, but... either Remus will marry Tonks and have little multicolored werewolf cubs ::gag:: or he'll join Sirius and James and Peter and Snape and we'll have nice little Force ghosts waving to Harry.

[marilla82.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I think I'd rather her kill him than marry him off with Tonks. *gags with you*

On an unrelated note -- I got your note! Heheh! Weee! I have the same paper! I'm going to use it for katilara's, blackmurtlap's, and brake4werewolves's TWH Survival Kits. Heh! So glad you and hubby like the goodies! Yay for babies and puppies!

[marilla82.livejournal.com]

that tag is brak4werewolves

[marauderthesn.livejournal.com]

More explanation? Do you think the Greyback stuff was more cruel than stuff that's happened in previous rounds, or what? *is curious*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Just extremely cruel. Hmmm.... Sample:

The days oozed by in a mess of hot sun and humidity, broken only by swims in the river. Life began to boil down to the basic necessities.

Each day he cleaned out his cave, shaking out his blanket and brushing the floor with a pine branch. There was little for breakfast, generally shared among the pack- the community, Remus firmly corrected himself. As the newest comer, he knew he had last pick at the food. Some mornings were not bad, when the community had a deer or boar that had been killed recently, or during the autumn when nuts were plentiful and small game was easy to catch. Other mornings, however, there was little even for those that had first priority, and nothing left for him.

Food became the dictator of his days. He had a few Sickles, but Sickles didn’t go far, especially with winter fast approaching. Bread was unheard of, and sweets and alcohol and other complicated foods were topics best left unmentioned. If food was around, then there was still wood to be gathered and clothing to be washed and… and. There was not much else that was done.

The others filled their time with each other. Remus had learnt names and faces, but he was still an outsider, distrusted and strongly disliked. He’d anticipated this, but it still cut deep into his soul, especially on those days where he didn’t speak at all.

And this is before Fenrir comes back. Just the picture I'm painting of Remus's life among the werewolves scares me.

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I don't know if JKR really does realise quite how bleak some of her characters' lives are. Or she doesn't intend for people to take it quite so seriously. I get the impression that some dark details are thrown in simply because they are dark and creepy, not because of the long-reaching psychological effects in the story.

Things like Sirius living in a cave through GoF and eating rats -- I mean, really, are we supposed to believe that nobody could send him food or give him a warm place to stay? Or the entire Deliverance-derived history of the Gaunt family, which was interesting but served no real purpose except to demonstrate that in-breeding and date rape drugs produce Dark Lords.

There's a lot of darkness in the books, but much of it feels superficial. I mean, the connection is there between Remus' spying and his depression, and his association with Greyback, but I'm not sure JKR even intended for us to look deeper than exactly what Remus says in the Christmas scene. The fact that three intelligent adults totally brush aside his protests in the hospital is odd -- why would anybody think that was something that could be simply set aside as 'not important', if it's as horrible as it looks? But that's just how it looked at the end of HBP. It could very well change in the next book. (I don't even know if I'm making sense here.)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

You know, I've really been wondering that too, because it's really, really amazing that Remus HASN'T jumped off a cliff by now. And Sirius in the cave- I agree. I can make arguments for Lupin not sending him food (like, he didn't have any), but I can't really make any arguments for Dumbledore not doing it.

You've said it before and I think you're right- the Marauders in general (I think you've usually said Sirius, but Remus and Peter fit this as well) act as much as plot devices as they do as characters, if not more. Which I can understand- they aren't her focus and you can only develop your minor characters so much- but it's really frustrating at the same time.

Heh. THe fact that three adults brushed aside Remus's objections at the end of HBP really does bug me. Too poor IS important- not necessarily that Tonks can't take it, but if Remus can't. If it's an issue for him (which it's GOT to be, or why doesn't the man at LEAST get a Weasley sweater for Christmas, if not new robes?), it's going to be an issue for them- and if he can't get over it, it could ruin a relationship. And too dangerous definitely right, with Greyback now knowing for sure that Remus was spying on him. (Unless Greyback falls under the "criminally stupid" class of DeathEaters, and Snape develops unexpected loyalty towards Remus and doesn't "slip" again.) The "too old"... okay. Maybe he's got a bit of a point there. But... ::sigh:: I should go get dressed instead of beating a dead horse! :)

But you are making sense- and you're probably right. exaggeration is a lovely literary tool at times!

Remus/Tonks

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I had to stop my story, I just couldn't buy into it. Not that Lupin doesn't deserve happiness, but Tonks would definately feel the lack sooner or later. She isn't that stupid? Yeah?

Re: Remus/Tonks

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I agree she's not that stupid (althouh her behavior in HBP might argue with me!). I also cannot end on happily ever after, but then, I don't read the hospital scene as him agreeing to marry her. I read it as him agreeing to try a relationship. Anything else....

Honestly, I still don't LIKE the ship. I still think it was handled badly and I still think it's not a good match, no matter what people say. What I'd really like to see for Remus is him developing a truly good friendship with someone (which I'm giving him- not something like he's got with Molly and Arthur, but someone he can be emotionally close to and actually trust) and the hope of a JOB. I was hoping for the DADA position- and still do- but they need to lift the curse on it, first. I've always thought love was not the ideal happy ending for Remus, but for the purposes of this fic, I'm trying to see how it could work. (It's not easy.)

Right now, as I'm writing this, it utterly baffles me that anyone can say Remus/Tonks is cute. It may be a lot of things, but one thing Remus is NOT is cute. ::sigh::

*sigh*

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I hear you.

I actually started to write the Remus/Tonks but ended up writing and posting Remus meta instead (with comtesse_sin ) and I've come to the conclusion that he's too remote, too distant and after Dumbledore, he'd be comfortably numb, if you know what I mean?

So...I read it as him agreeing to try a relationship. Anything else....

Yeah, me too, but even then...

Re: *sigh*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Comfortably numb is a really good description of where I see Remus's emotional state. The thing I'm having the hardest time getting around is that nowhere in HBP does Remus seem at all into the idea of a relationship. Nowhere at all. I still can't see how we're supposed to believe he's thinking of her over Christmas, when he doesn't even know how she's spending Christmas, and Molly has to correct him. And if Mr. I-Like-to-be-Liked turned her down for a whole YEAR... it just doesn't work for me. ::sigh:: Which is why the fic will end at the getting together point. (And is also why the working title is "Doing it Right." "it" refers to the writing of the ship. If she HAD to write it this way, I'm immodest enough to say here's how it could work. :P)

I did read your meta, and really enjoyed it. I thought you hit the nail on the head summing up Remus with the line "I must be grateful." If it remotely fit my femgenficathon prompt at all, I'd write the Remus/McG career conversation from her point of view. Gods, whoever said it above is right- that must have been depressing!

Rereading comments

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I've always thought love was not the ideal happy ending for Remus,

So have I. His happy ending would be to find a job commensurate with his skills and abilities, adopting a stray black dog called padfoot, and just taking a fair time to just heal and get some equilibrium. I can see him being content and having brief affairs when he needed companionship. Who says that one needs to be paired off and be in love. I know some people who are alone, but not lonely but that's a distinction that not many people understand.

Re: Rereading comments

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

That's precisely one of the reasons I hated Remus/Tonks. I like Remus alone, and I like Tonks alone! I think Tonks is awfully young to be so worried about marriage or anything- especially with her career, and I liked the Tonks in my head that either had casual sex or short flings, but didn't want to be tied down because she didn't want to be bothered with everything that goes with a relationship. (Unless it was Charlie Weasley. I really have a soft spot for Tonks/Charlie, but I never expected that particular pairing in canon.)

And Remus... I want a friend for him more than anything else. That's what I think he really needs. I was VERY disappointed not to see him and Harry connect, because I was really hoping they would start forming something that seemed like a true friendship based on themselves rather than their histories. And I would really like to see more of a Remus/Arthur friendship, although after Arthur joined in the mass pushing I grumble about that, and am happier to write a Remus/Bill friendship. But my happy ending for Remus was always getting the DADA professorship back at Hogwarts, and the implication he might be Headmaster once McGonagall's reign was over. I can't see that really happening, but I would have really liked it.

ahhh lupinslittlesis

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

It seems that you and myself have similar view points towards this pairing. I'm glad, because at times when I've been bouncing around various comms (like FA, COS, Mugglenet, fttphpforums) I do wonder if I'm speaking to the wind, or if I'm mad or just jaded (the latter I can understand, since I'm a child of divorce).

Thank you for this. Really. Its nice to know that I'm not alone in my WTFness over the pairing

Have you being reading krislaugh's approach to R/T, you should. It seems as if its going to be deliciously... sticky as it should be.

Re: ahhh lupinslittlesis

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're mad at all. I can think of several others on my f-list that felt the same way. (And I've been pouncing on krislaugh's stuff. She's one of my favorite writers, anyway. Did you read her AU Paper Wings?)

I think- canonwise- Lupin/Tonks is probably here to stay unless she kills one or the other off. I hate it, but what can you do, y'know? But one of the things I HATE about it is the fluffy take on the pairing. I don't see anything cute at all about them, to be honest.

I don't think you're jaded on this subject. I'm not a child of divorce at all, and I'm also very very happily married, but I can remember times in my life that "love" (or whatever it really was) really screwed things up. If I'd just accepted that I was meant to be alone at those times, my life would have been much better. And if I DID lose my husband (God forbid, knock on wood, etc.), it would be very, very hard for me to really get into the idea of being with someone else.

I actually have a couple characters in Accidentally in Love I've kept as bachelors simply because I hate the Noah's Ark syndrome. Moody just strikes me as someone who is meant to be alone, and is happy that way. My version of him is just devoted to his work, and really doesn't feel the need for any romantic attachment. And the same goes for my version of Caradoc Dearborn. In fact, if women came after them Moody would be oblivious (unless she was a Dark Wizard with her wand drawn) and Caradoc would run the other way screaming.

Tonks isn't someone I see being alone all her life, but just not now. She just struck me as such an independent character in the first book. That's actually why I like her with Charlie Weasley at some point. Charlie is close to his family, and yet he goes off to Romania to study dragons. This tells me that Charlie can form those lasting attachments, but doesn't need to be constantly around the people he loves. He strikes me as a bit of a lone wolf there in the Weasley clan, and the most independent of them. I could see Tonks and Charlie in a relationship where they care about each other very intensely, but they are perfectly capable of spending time on their own and pursuing their own careers. (And I really just can't see Tonks with kids. Not that I think she'd make a terrible mother. But I don't think everyone has that desire to have kids- I mean, it TOTALLY changes and takes over your life- and I don't really see the Tonks in my head WANTING that- at least, not now.)

And Remus, if he's going to get into a relationship, strikes me as a major time investment. He's not an easy person to love, I don't think, because he's so buttoned up and has so many issues and all that. And I don't think he WANTS to be loved right now. I'm too old, I'm too poor, I'm too dangerous... those aren't just excuses. Those are perceptions of himself, and if that's what he thinks, it's valid. His age and poverty will be an issue because he'll make it an issue. And the dangerous- well, right now he's completely right.

It's sometimes hard for me to distinguish where JKR draws werewolf regulations and where I do, but it does seem like most of her world hates werewolves. Any commitment on Remus's part will not bring him up into society, but will bring his partner down in social status. With Sirius, that wasn't a big deal. NOT because Sirius was so willing to say "fuck the world", but because I can see where their relationship would be kept private. The first time around, it was the 70s and I can see them not flaunting it. And the second time around, I can see them both feeling very strongly that this is private and their own business and everyone else can go to hell. (Plus, it's not like Sirius has any social standing in OotP anyway.) But with Tonks, their relationship already is public, and any marriage would be as well. (AND Remus's werewolf status is blatantly public, which it wasn't before PoA.) I can see where Remus would not want to tie someone to that life- and even if she's willing, it's on his concience and his soul.

Nods

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

And Remus, if he's going to get into a relationship, strikes me as a major time investment.

Word.

He's not an easy person to love, I don't think, because he's so buttoned up and has so many issues and all that. And I don't think he WANTS to be loved right now.

This is a very good point. Right now, Remus may want to kill Peter, Snape and Fenir - or just do something wild, and Tonks would hold him back, she really would.

I'm too old, I'm too poor, I'm too dangerous... those aren't just excuses. Those are perceptions of himself, and if that's what he thinks, it's valid. His age and poverty will be an issue because he'll make it an issue. And the dangerous- well, right now he's completely right.

Word. Also, in terms of the poverty, it may not be an issue to her now, but she'd probably resent supporting him after a while, or when the ardor cools, it's more out of obligation than anything else, and pity is corrosive. Sirius may be many things, but that wouldn't be an issue.

Yeah, I think he'd be dangerous right now too. Lupin's close to breaking, and he just may do so.

Re: ahhh lupinslittlesis

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But more than that, I think Remus has been alone for a long, long time. (I think Hermione's quote about Sirius fits Remus very well, too.) In fact, I think the only points he wasn't were before he was bitten, and from first year to 1981. I think he's grown accustomed to being alone, and when you are that alone, letting someone into your life and rearranging everything is HARD. I mean, you have to go from only worrying about what you want and your plans and all that to considering the needs and wishes of this other person. It can be done, but I can see where Remus might not want to do it. And again, I can see where he would for Sirius, who there is a history with, but I don't get that connection from Tonks.

The hospital scene just struck me as all the Smug Marrieds trying to pawn Tonks off on Remus, because everyone must be In Love.

Tell me about it

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I think he's grown accustomed to being alone, and when you are that alone, letting someone into your life and rearranging everything is HARD. I mean, you have to go from only worrying about what you want and your plans and all that to considering the needs and wishes of this other person.

True, and the thing with Tonks is, she's shown that for all her vaulted feelings, she supposedly doesn't understand the man she supposedly loves. She doesn't understand his need for privacy in that emotional turmoil of the time by Bill's bedside, and she manipulates and strong arms him into some sort of committment. Now, before people say 'huh, Jazz' y'all need to look at that scene again.

So, she doesn't understand his needs and feelings, and with his noncomitial reply, he doesn't seem as if he'd really push himself to understand her, either, and who can blame him. He's said no, and she still wants him, well... she'll take him as he is.

I agree with you though, Tonks/Lupin aren't cute, couples stopped being cute from grade school. What Lupin/Tonks are is mismatched. I can't really believe that in fernworthy's Shades Lupin would be so open in his emotions (engagement rings, calling her 'Dora', and kissing her hand and the rest of it). Lupin closed up like a clam after Sirius died, he has to in order to carry out what he needs to do.

Yeah, I'll read book 7, and flinch at Lupin/Tonks and Fleur/Bill's double wedding (can you see it? I can see it), because Remus is not GAY and he likes VAGINA y'all! VAGINA!

Re: Tell me about it

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Also, in terms of the poverty, it may not be an issue to her now, but she'd probably resent supporting him after a while, or when the ardor cools, it's more out of obligation than anything else, and pity is corrosive. Sirius may be many things, but that wouldn't be an issue

I hate to say it, but there's also the issue that Sirius is a man, Tonks is a woman. I think either way Remus's pride would take a beating, but it's easier to cope when it's a man supporting you than a woman. Sexist, sure. But realistic.

That was also one of the things I always got from Sirius that I don't get from Tonks. Sirius truly understands what it means for Remus to be a werewolf. I don't know that I would 100% believe that pre-Azkaban; they're young, Sirius DID pull the prank, and I think the werewolf card played in heavily when it came to suspecting Remus. But then Sirius had 12 years in Azkaban- partly because he did not understand Remus fully. He had 12 years not only to think about it, but to dwell on it. And when we see Sirius again in the present, we do not see any of the disregard for Remus's feelings or social standing. It's no longer a "furry little problem." Sirius never mentions it, to be fair, but perhaps that's why.

However, with Tonks shouting she doesn't care that Remus is a werewolf and that doesn't matter, I have much more the impression that she's on the "furry little problem" end of the scale. She's saying it doesn't matter... but does she understand what she's truly getting into? I'm not convinced. Especially given the fact his WEREWOLF is her Patronus. (Which is overanalyzing. How else DO you represent Remus without resorting to Force Ghost?)

Yeah, I think he'd be dangerous right now too. Lupin's close to breaking, and he just may do so.

It's not just that, although I agree that that's a huge thing, too. It's the fact that, between the fight at the Astronomy Tower and Snape on the loose (good, bad, I don't care- he still hates Remus), Greyback KNOWS that Remus was spying on him. If that doesn't count as "offending Greyback", I don't know what would. And we know Greyback's method of revenge isn't to do harm to the person who offended him, but someone that they love. Sure, he prefers kids, but that didn't stop him from trying to eat Bill Weasley's face! Tonks is in danger from Greyback as well.

So, she doesn't understand his needs and feelings, and with his noncomitial reply, he doesn't seem as if he'd really push himself to understand her, either, and who can blame him. He's said no, and she still wants him, well... she'll take him as he is.

Actually, I don't think you need to read that scene again, because this is one of the exact reasons I hate this pairing and how it was written. I mean, even HARRY of all people commented moments before on how private Lupin is, and how he's never seen him lose control before. And it's an interesting point that he won't push himself to understand her- and I think you're right, although I didn't put that thought into words. (In fact, the way I'm setting up my R/T is that he IS accidentally fucking with her head, not because he's being malicious but because he doesn't bother to think about what his actions are saying.)

I agree with you though, Tonks/Lupin aren't cute, couples stopped being cute from grade school.

Exactly. Last "couple" I thought were cute were 12. And utterly clueless. But I agree about Remus being mismatched with Tonks. I can make him relatively open at 20, but once 1981 hits, I think he really closed up. In fact, WE don't ever see Remus open- but it's clear that Sirius does (when he mentions Remus ranting about Umbridge). But whereas Sirius still had some measure of control and some reserve- or at least respected that reserve in Remus- Tonks utterly lacks it.

Lupin/Tonks and Fleur/Bill's double wedding (can you see it? I can see it)

Please please please let Fleur be far too much of a diva to agree to a double wedding! (Besides, I still can't be convinced that Remus was agreeing to marry her at the end of HBP. All I can manage is he was agreeing to try a relationship.)