Quick thought

[lls_mutant]

You know, JKR was really, really, really, really cruel to Remus this round.

I mean, really.

Did she really think about what she was making him do in this book?

I've started writing it for the Remus/Sirius --> Remus/Tonks fic I'm working on, and WOW. All I can say is, after putting him through this, if Tonks makes him happy, good. The poor guy needs SOMETHING- even if it's a crappy hospital scene and a hand holding.

Seriously- and I say this as the highest compliment, as pfrsue can attest to- JKR is a psychotic bitch.

Comments

ahhh lupinslittlesis

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

It seems that you and myself have similar view points towards this pairing. I'm glad, because at times when I've been bouncing around various comms (like FA, COS, Mugglenet, fttphpforums) I do wonder if I'm speaking to the wind, or if I'm mad or just jaded (the latter I can understand, since I'm a child of divorce).

Thank you for this. Really. Its nice to know that I'm not alone in my WTFness over the pairing

Have you being reading krislaugh's approach to R/T, you should. It seems as if its going to be deliciously... sticky as it should be.

Re: ahhh lupinslittlesis

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're mad at all. I can think of several others on my f-list that felt the same way. (And I've been pouncing on krislaugh's stuff. She's one of my favorite writers, anyway. Did you read her AU Paper Wings?)

I think- canonwise- Lupin/Tonks is probably here to stay unless she kills one or the other off. I hate it, but what can you do, y'know? But one of the things I HATE about it is the fluffy take on the pairing. I don't see anything cute at all about them, to be honest.

I don't think you're jaded on this subject. I'm not a child of divorce at all, and I'm also very very happily married, but I can remember times in my life that "love" (or whatever it really was) really screwed things up. If I'd just accepted that I was meant to be alone at those times, my life would have been much better. And if I DID lose my husband (God forbid, knock on wood, etc.), it would be very, very hard for me to really get into the idea of being with someone else.

I actually have a couple characters in Accidentally in Love I've kept as bachelors simply because I hate the Noah's Ark syndrome. Moody just strikes me as someone who is meant to be alone, and is happy that way. My version of him is just devoted to his work, and really doesn't feel the need for any romantic attachment. And the same goes for my version of Caradoc Dearborn. In fact, if women came after them Moody would be oblivious (unless she was a Dark Wizard with her wand drawn) and Caradoc would run the other way screaming.

Tonks isn't someone I see being alone all her life, but just not now. She just struck me as such an independent character in the first book. That's actually why I like her with Charlie Weasley at some point. Charlie is close to his family, and yet he goes off to Romania to study dragons. This tells me that Charlie can form those lasting attachments, but doesn't need to be constantly around the people he loves. He strikes me as a bit of a lone wolf there in the Weasley clan, and the most independent of them. I could see Tonks and Charlie in a relationship where they care about each other very intensely, but they are perfectly capable of spending time on their own and pursuing their own careers. (And I really just can't see Tonks with kids. Not that I think she'd make a terrible mother. But I don't think everyone has that desire to have kids- I mean, it TOTALLY changes and takes over your life- and I don't really see the Tonks in my head WANTING that- at least, not now.)

And Remus, if he's going to get into a relationship, strikes me as a major time investment. He's not an easy person to love, I don't think, because he's so buttoned up and has so many issues and all that. And I don't think he WANTS to be loved right now. I'm too old, I'm too poor, I'm too dangerous... those aren't just excuses. Those are perceptions of himself, and if that's what he thinks, it's valid. His age and poverty will be an issue because he'll make it an issue. And the dangerous- well, right now he's completely right.

It's sometimes hard for me to distinguish where JKR draws werewolf regulations and where I do, but it does seem like most of her world hates werewolves. Any commitment on Remus's part will not bring him up into society, but will bring his partner down in social status. With Sirius, that wasn't a big deal. NOT because Sirius was so willing to say "fuck the world", but because I can see where their relationship would be kept private. The first time around, it was the 70s and I can see them not flaunting it. And the second time around, I can see them both feeling very strongly that this is private and their own business and everyone else can go to hell. (Plus, it's not like Sirius has any social standing in OotP anyway.) But with Tonks, their relationship already is public, and any marriage would be as well. (AND Remus's werewolf status is blatantly public, which it wasn't before PoA.) I can see where Remus would not want to tie someone to that life- and even if she's willing, it's on his concience and his soul.

Nods

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

And Remus, if he's going to get into a relationship, strikes me as a major time investment.

Word.

He's not an easy person to love, I don't think, because he's so buttoned up and has so many issues and all that. And I don't think he WANTS to be loved right now.

This is a very good point. Right now, Remus may want to kill Peter, Snape and Fenir - or just do something wild, and Tonks would hold him back, she really would.

I'm too old, I'm too poor, I'm too dangerous... those aren't just excuses. Those are perceptions of himself, and if that's what he thinks, it's valid. His age and poverty will be an issue because he'll make it an issue. And the dangerous- well, right now he's completely right.

Word. Also, in terms of the poverty, it may not be an issue to her now, but she'd probably resent supporting him after a while, or when the ardor cools, it's more out of obligation than anything else, and pity is corrosive. Sirius may be many things, but that wouldn't be an issue.

Yeah, I think he'd be dangerous right now too. Lupin's close to breaking, and he just may do so.

Re: ahhh lupinslittlesis

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

But more than that, I think Remus has been alone for a long, long time. (I think Hermione's quote about Sirius fits Remus very well, too.) In fact, I think the only points he wasn't were before he was bitten, and from first year to 1981. I think he's grown accustomed to being alone, and when you are that alone, letting someone into your life and rearranging everything is HARD. I mean, you have to go from only worrying about what you want and your plans and all that to considering the needs and wishes of this other person. It can be done, but I can see where Remus might not want to do it. And again, I can see where he would for Sirius, who there is a history with, but I don't get that connection from Tonks.

The hospital scene just struck me as all the Smug Marrieds trying to pawn Tonks off on Remus, because everyone must be In Love.

Tell me about it

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

I think he's grown accustomed to being alone, and when you are that alone, letting someone into your life and rearranging everything is HARD. I mean, you have to go from only worrying about what you want and your plans and all that to considering the needs and wishes of this other person.

True, and the thing with Tonks is, she's shown that for all her vaulted feelings, she supposedly doesn't understand the man she supposedly loves. She doesn't understand his need for privacy in that emotional turmoil of the time by Bill's bedside, and she manipulates and strong arms him into some sort of committment. Now, before people say 'huh, Jazz' y'all need to look at that scene again.

So, she doesn't understand his needs and feelings, and with his noncomitial reply, he doesn't seem as if he'd really push himself to understand her, either, and who can blame him. He's said no, and she still wants him, well... she'll take him as he is.

I agree with you though, Tonks/Lupin aren't cute, couples stopped being cute from grade school. What Lupin/Tonks are is mismatched. I can't really believe that in fernworthy's Shades Lupin would be so open in his emotions (engagement rings, calling her 'Dora', and kissing her hand and the rest of it). Lupin closed up like a clam after Sirius died, he has to in order to carry out what he needs to do.

Yeah, I'll read book 7, and flinch at Lupin/Tonks and Fleur/Bill's double wedding (can you see it? I can see it), because Remus is not GAY and he likes VAGINA y'all! VAGINA!

Re: Tell me about it

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Also, in terms of the poverty, it may not be an issue to her now, but she'd probably resent supporting him after a while, or when the ardor cools, it's more out of obligation than anything else, and pity is corrosive. Sirius may be many things, but that wouldn't be an issue

I hate to say it, but there's also the issue that Sirius is a man, Tonks is a woman. I think either way Remus's pride would take a beating, but it's easier to cope when it's a man supporting you than a woman. Sexist, sure. But realistic.

That was also one of the things I always got from Sirius that I don't get from Tonks. Sirius truly understands what it means for Remus to be a werewolf. I don't know that I would 100% believe that pre-Azkaban; they're young, Sirius DID pull the prank, and I think the werewolf card played in heavily when it came to suspecting Remus. But then Sirius had 12 years in Azkaban- partly because he did not understand Remus fully. He had 12 years not only to think about it, but to dwell on it. And when we see Sirius again in the present, we do not see any of the disregard for Remus's feelings or social standing. It's no longer a "furry little problem." Sirius never mentions it, to be fair, but perhaps that's why.

However, with Tonks shouting she doesn't care that Remus is a werewolf and that doesn't matter, I have much more the impression that she's on the "furry little problem" end of the scale. She's saying it doesn't matter... but does she understand what she's truly getting into? I'm not convinced. Especially given the fact his WEREWOLF is her Patronus. (Which is overanalyzing. How else DO you represent Remus without resorting to Force Ghost?)

Yeah, I think he'd be dangerous right now too. Lupin's close to breaking, and he just may do so.

It's not just that, although I agree that that's a huge thing, too. It's the fact that, between the fight at the Astronomy Tower and Snape on the loose (good, bad, I don't care- he still hates Remus), Greyback KNOWS that Remus was spying on him. If that doesn't count as "offending Greyback", I don't know what would. And we know Greyback's method of revenge isn't to do harm to the person who offended him, but someone that they love. Sure, he prefers kids, but that didn't stop him from trying to eat Bill Weasley's face! Tonks is in danger from Greyback as well.

So, she doesn't understand his needs and feelings, and with his noncomitial reply, he doesn't seem as if he'd really push himself to understand her, either, and who can blame him. He's said no, and she still wants him, well... she'll take him as he is.

Actually, I don't think you need to read that scene again, because this is one of the exact reasons I hate this pairing and how it was written. I mean, even HARRY of all people commented moments before on how private Lupin is, and how he's never seen him lose control before. And it's an interesting point that he won't push himself to understand her- and I think you're right, although I didn't put that thought into words. (In fact, the way I'm setting up my R/T is that he IS accidentally fucking with her head, not because he's being malicious but because he doesn't bother to think about what his actions are saying.)

I agree with you though, Tonks/Lupin aren't cute, couples stopped being cute from grade school.

Exactly. Last "couple" I thought were cute were 12. And utterly clueless. But I agree about Remus being mismatched with Tonks. I can make him relatively open at 20, but once 1981 hits, I think he really closed up. In fact, WE don't ever see Remus open- but it's clear that Sirius does (when he mentions Remus ranting about Umbridge). But whereas Sirius still had some measure of control and some reserve- or at least respected that reserve in Remus- Tonks utterly lacks it.

Lupin/Tonks and Fleur/Bill's double wedding (can you see it? I can see it)

Please please please let Fleur be far too much of a diva to agree to a double wedding! (Besides, I still can't be convinced that Remus was agreeing to marry her at the end of HBP. All I can manage is he was agreeing to try a relationship.)