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lls_mutantYou know, I didn't think you could be sick of bodily functions. But I swear, if I have to pee one more time... ::sigh:: Honestly. But that's hardly a new complaint, I'm sure.
The 'rents are coming for the weekend, which will be nice. They haven't been down since Grandma had her stroke back in January- hubby and I have gone up every single time. I think Mom needs to get away from Grandma for a bit. She's pretty much a saint about the whole thing, but it does drain her, and when you consider Grandma isn't even her mother.... Anyway, should be a nice weekend, but I'll be glad when the housecleaning is done! (On the bright side, I needed to clean the house. Badly.)
So I was bored and surfing on LJ, and kind of going to some journals I don't go to much because the owners are R/T shippers- or at least ship defenders. It's not that I find those journals offensive, it's just kind of like the ship threads and can't stand threads at FAP, y'know? If you're a shipper and want to defend a particular ship, you should be able to do so in your LJ without people coming around and telling you why they don't like that ship. But there was actually a really good discussion going on FAP between a few people (the Order of the Phoenix forum on the Tonks thread) that, y'know, actually had INTELLIGENT conversation. So I started surfing journals, and I came across this amusing little piece by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
snorkackcatcher. It features both het and slash, and while it has a successful R/T it actually gives Tonks her dignity, and has a twist that really cracked me up. But anyway. That wasn't my point. (Although you should go read it anyway, as long as you don't feel the need to start any sort of ship wars when you read R/T stuff.)
In the comments, I mentioned that rather than the stereotypes of lesbians, Tonks struck me more as the stereotype of a college student, a commentsnorkackcatcher agreed with. And that got me thinking about Tonks.
You know the kind of college student I'm thinking when I think of Tonks. The kind who is full of fire to change the world, and determined that SHE is going to make a difference. I can see Tonks having that fire and passion... and that idealism. I can see her maintaining that all through her Auror training, especially since she seems to have a close association with Moody. Moody might be kind of creepy in his way, but I can see where a young Auror would idolize him. Heck, I have Sirius do it to an extent, although in my stuff he tends to idolize Damien Lupin more. But in GoF, Sirius talks about what a fantastic Auror Moody is, and how he refused to use the Unforgivable Curses if he could help it. (Or at least that's implied.) So anyway, I can see where Tonks would have this deep-seated belief that she's out to change the world and she can do it, and being an Auror is a great way to do so.
Then Voldemort comes back.
A lot has been made about Tonks's depression being about her being a green Auror and getting into something she didn't really anticipate. Let's say screw that for a moment, because that really IS very degrading to her as a woman (since we don't have a man having the same problem), and say that maybe it's something else... maybe it's Tonks realizing that her ideals are WRONG.
Not wrong in that she shouldn't believe in them. She should. But wrong in that she thinks she herself can save the world, that she can convince people of the way the world should be, and that all those she comes in contact with- especially those that outrank her- are worthy of her respect. But she can't change the world alone. Bellatrix defeated her and killed Sirius. She can't convince people of the way the world should be. No one is really listening to her, and she's basically having to follow orders she doesn't agree with. And those that outrank her are not always worthy of her respect. Even as early as OotP we saw that Tonks didn't totally trust Scrimgeour when she was worried about him asking questions, and then in HBP....
One of my predictions for HBP was that Amos Diggory would be the new Minister of Magic. I was wrong about the identity, but I was close to right about the reasons. I thought that JKR would chose someone who was anti-Voldemort, but who wasn't necessarily pro-Dumbledore, or behaving like Harry would think a Minister of Magic should. And we definitely see that, particularly in the case of Stan Shunpike, where it's obvious, even to the most casual reader, that Stan Shunpike is not a Death Eater, pretty much from the get-go.
We see that case, but it's insinuated that there's more. I'm writing this without having my book, so there might even be more cases mentioned that I'm forgetting. (I really need to do a reread.) But as an Auror- and one of the people being required to arrest these people- Tonks is, without a doubt, seeing things that aren't all that kosher in the Ministry. Now here's where I'm making a jump a bit. It's not canon, but I think it's not unreasonable, either. Tonks is having her ideal picture of being an Auror stripped away layer by layer, very rapidly, as she's being told to do things she doesn't agree with. And she can't stop it, because it doesn't seem like she's got enough power to change anyone's mind (I wouldn't expect her to, at her age). And she can't just up and quit, because a lot of what she is doing IS valuable and is what she wants to do. But we see her losing a lot of her more collegiate stereotypes, particularly the pink hair. (Of course, she gets it back at the end, but...)
The thing about the green Auror thing is that we don't see Tonks losing her nerve. If I remember rightly (and I very well may not), she does fine at the battle at Hogwarts at the end, and she doesn't seem to be having any real trouble with her post. But an Auror losing her idealism... now that I can buy.
It also adds a new layer to Tonks/Lupin. Both of them are being asked to do something they don't want to do. There's a difference, of course. Tonks is being asked to do something she believes is wrong, whereas Lupin is being asked to do something that must be extraordinarily painful. I've wondered how various characters feel about Lupin being asked to do his spying job. (And perhaps Tonks is losing some faith in Dumbledore as well? But really, I see no evidence for that one.) But at least it gives them something in common.
Sadly, this is all my thoughts. I still firmly believe that none of these layers that fandom is rapidly building onto Tonks are really clearly built on by JKR, but hey. I really liked Tonks in OotP and one of the big reasons Lupin/Tonks pissed me off was I HATED what it did to her character. So if I can find some rationalizations, at least for now.... I still, for the record, think that she would have been better off with Charlie Weasley. Someone (I want to say it might have even beensnorkackchaser again) pointed out in the FAP discussion that while Tonks might not have been behaving well, Lupin was pretty darn manipulative too, bringing up Dumbledore's death as a shield against a conversation he didn't want to have. Very true. The man is a passive-agressive, manipulative, lying bastard when he wants to be. He really is. And he is old, poor, and dangerous- and even if Tonks doesn't believe these are issues, they will become issues because they are important in his mind. Tonks should have gone for Charlie Weasley, who has a strong attachment to his family but the courage, independence, and interest to go gallivanting off to Romania to do what he really wants to do. Of course, that requires them MEETING on the page, but what do you want? ;)
Anyway, I should get back to work. Not that I'm getting far anyway, which is why I'm writing this. ::Sigh::
ETA: Two pieces of writing posted: my Hitch Review, which I was actually fairly pleased with this time, and (Pooly, look away please) a little PWP. Which I shouldn't have been writing since it's NOT on my list, but at least the Hitch review was (although JUSTIN added the slashy comments to the picture captions. Not me. I only did the first one- the one about going up the stairs and down the banisters, which was really lame. But I suck at captions.)
The 'rents are coming for the weekend, which will be nice. They haven't been down since Grandma had her stroke back in January- hubby and I have gone up every single time. I think Mom needs to get away from Grandma for a bit. She's pretty much a saint about the whole thing, but it does drain her, and when you consider Grandma isn't even her mother.... Anyway, should be a nice weekend, but I'll be glad when the housecleaning is done! (On the bright side, I needed to clean the house. Badly.)
So I was bored and surfing on LJ, and kind of going to some journals I don't go to much because the owners are R/T shippers- or at least ship defenders. It's not that I find those journals offensive, it's just kind of like the ship threads and can't stand threads at FAP, y'know? If you're a shipper and want to defend a particular ship, you should be able to do so in your LJ without people coming around and telling you why they don't like that ship. But there was actually a really good discussion going on FAP between a few people (the Order of the Phoenix forum on the Tonks thread) that, y'know, actually had INTELLIGENT conversation. So I started surfing journals, and I came across this amusing little piece by
snorkackcatcher. It features both het and slash, and while it has a successful R/T it actually gives Tonks her dignity, and has a twist that really cracked me up. But anyway. That wasn't my point. (Although you should go read it anyway, as long as you don't feel the need to start any sort of ship wars when you read R/T stuff.)In the comments, I mentioned that rather than the stereotypes of lesbians, Tonks struck me more as the stereotype of a college student, a comment
snorkackcatcher agreed with. And that got me thinking about Tonks.You know the kind of college student I'm thinking when I think of Tonks. The kind who is full of fire to change the world, and determined that SHE is going to make a difference. I can see Tonks having that fire and passion... and that idealism. I can see her maintaining that all through her Auror training, especially since she seems to have a close association with Moody. Moody might be kind of creepy in his way, but I can see where a young Auror would idolize him. Heck, I have Sirius do it to an extent, although in my stuff he tends to idolize Damien Lupin more. But in GoF, Sirius talks about what a fantastic Auror Moody is, and how he refused to use the Unforgivable Curses if he could help it. (Or at least that's implied.) So anyway, I can see where Tonks would have this deep-seated belief that she's out to change the world and she can do it, and being an Auror is a great way to do so.
Then Voldemort comes back.
A lot has been made about Tonks's depression being about her being a green Auror and getting into something she didn't really anticipate. Let's say screw that for a moment, because that really IS very degrading to her as a woman (since we don't have a man having the same problem), and say that maybe it's something else... maybe it's Tonks realizing that her ideals are WRONG.
Not wrong in that she shouldn't believe in them. She should. But wrong in that she thinks she herself can save the world, that she can convince people of the way the world should be, and that all those she comes in contact with- especially those that outrank her- are worthy of her respect. But she can't change the world alone. Bellatrix defeated her and killed Sirius. She can't convince people of the way the world should be. No one is really listening to her, and she's basically having to follow orders she doesn't agree with. And those that outrank her are not always worthy of her respect. Even as early as OotP we saw that Tonks didn't totally trust Scrimgeour when she was worried about him asking questions, and then in HBP....
One of my predictions for HBP was that Amos Diggory would be the new Minister of Magic. I was wrong about the identity, but I was close to right about the reasons. I thought that JKR would chose someone who was anti-Voldemort, but who wasn't necessarily pro-Dumbledore, or behaving like Harry would think a Minister of Magic should. And we definitely see that, particularly in the case of Stan Shunpike, where it's obvious, even to the most casual reader, that Stan Shunpike is not a Death Eater, pretty much from the get-go.
We see that case, but it's insinuated that there's more. I'm writing this without having my book, so there might even be more cases mentioned that I'm forgetting. (I really need to do a reread.) But as an Auror- and one of the people being required to arrest these people- Tonks is, without a doubt, seeing things that aren't all that kosher in the Ministry. Now here's where I'm making a jump a bit. It's not canon, but I think it's not unreasonable, either. Tonks is having her ideal picture of being an Auror stripped away layer by layer, very rapidly, as she's being told to do things she doesn't agree with. And she can't stop it, because it doesn't seem like she's got enough power to change anyone's mind (I wouldn't expect her to, at her age). And she can't just up and quit, because a lot of what she is doing IS valuable and is what she wants to do. But we see her losing a lot of her more collegiate stereotypes, particularly the pink hair. (Of course, she gets it back at the end, but...)
The thing about the green Auror thing is that we don't see Tonks losing her nerve. If I remember rightly (and I very well may not), she does fine at the battle at Hogwarts at the end, and she doesn't seem to be having any real trouble with her post. But an Auror losing her idealism... now that I can buy.
It also adds a new layer to Tonks/Lupin. Both of them are being asked to do something they don't want to do. There's a difference, of course. Tonks is being asked to do something she believes is wrong, whereas Lupin is being asked to do something that must be extraordinarily painful. I've wondered how various characters feel about Lupin being asked to do his spying job. (And perhaps Tonks is losing some faith in Dumbledore as well? But really, I see no evidence for that one.) But at least it gives them something in common.
Sadly, this is all my thoughts. I still firmly believe that none of these layers that fandom is rapidly building onto Tonks are really clearly built on by JKR, but hey. I really liked Tonks in OotP and one of the big reasons Lupin/Tonks pissed me off was I HATED what it did to her character. So if I can find some rationalizations, at least for now.... I still, for the record, think that she would have been better off with Charlie Weasley. Someone (I want to say it might have even been
snorkackchaser again) pointed out in the FAP discussion that while Tonks might not have been behaving well, Lupin was pretty darn manipulative too, bringing up Dumbledore's death as a shield against a conversation he didn't want to have. Very true. The man is a passive-agressive, manipulative, lying bastard when he wants to be. He really is. And he is old, poor, and dangerous- and even if Tonks doesn't believe these are issues, they will become issues because they are important in his mind. Tonks should have gone for Charlie Weasley, who has a strong attachment to his family but the courage, independence, and interest to go gallivanting off to Romania to do what he really wants to do. Of course, that requires them MEETING on the page, but what do you want? ;) Anyway, I should get back to work. Not that I'm getting far anyway, which is why I'm writing this. ::Sigh::
ETA: Two pieces of writing posted: my Hitch Review, which I was actually fairly pleased with this time, and (Pooly, look away please) a little PWP. Which I shouldn't have been writing since it's NOT on my list, but at least the Hitch review was (although JUSTIN added the slashy comments to the picture captions. Not me. I only did the first one- the one about going up the stairs and down the banisters, which was really lame. But I suck at captions.)
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But you see...
Date: 2005-08-24 10:19 am (UTC)All of this is conjecture and thought. There is nothing to support this. The fact that people have to sit down and spin all these threads and reasoning to justify what we've seen is really sad because Ms. Rowling shows us nothing, and then preens with her 'when so and so, the mistress of mystery said that romance is so and so, and ergo Tonks and Lupin is a red herring' the hell? Nah, that was badly written, sorry.
For instance, we can sympathize with Draco Malfoy because we see him crying in the bathroom and his balking at killing a man. So, we can't call Draco weak, because well... he's trying to be his own man, win his own respect, but the price is too high and he wrote a cheque that his ass couldn't cash. I can respect that.
With regards to Lupin, in a few sentences, Ms. Rowling sketches a picture of an unhappy man, a man that is well... freezing in the winter of his discontent, so whatever happens afterwards, we can sympathize, because we've seen a hint of what Lupin is going through.
Tonks? Now, my issues with Tonks is, she does her duties well enough, yeah, and the Tonks defenders are saying that we could give her props for this. The hell? Props to her for doing her job?! Doing what she's trained to do? What she has had to be qualified to do?
I call bullshit.
Also, they project some reasons for Tonks behaviour that range from the sublime (her issues of identity, her relations with her mum and whatnot) to the ridiculous. I can't defend that hospital scene at all, where she manipulates Lupin (he's flayed open by his mentor dying, he has just found out Snape's role in the betrayal of the Potter's deaths and two weeks ago, in the Potterverse, his friend died) and yeah, her hair turns pink and she's happy, because she got what she want. Never mind the valid issues that were raised by Lupin, and the fact that it wasn't the right time do anything. The others around her agree, and Whooo hooo!
I would have been able to perhaps sympathize with Tonks if we had some glimpse of her personality, 'serious and driven' doesn't do it for me. Being able to recount what was going on doesn't do it for me. She speaks english fluently, why shouldn't she? It's a dark time, so yeah why shouldn't she be serious?
But as it is now, Tonks doesn't sit well with me beause if she were a man, the behaviour wouldn't have been like that. Look at Snape and the pressures that he's under, look at Sirius and the pressures that he was under. You wouldn't see the reason for any man losing his powers being alluded to love, wouldn't you? Rosalind in As You Like It was right, to rahtid, no man ever died of love.
Hooo *exhales* it seems that I still have issues with how Tonks has been presented, but yeah. If we were shown some sort of glimpses of stuff, I'd have been happy. This whole trying to come to some consensus on flimsy evidence is fallacious, in my opinion.
Re: But you see...
Date: 2005-08-24 03:05 pm (UTC)Oh, please- canon-wise, don't get me wrong!!!!!! I agree with you 100% and that's why I added the caveat that this is all fanon interpretation. As I said in my response to
JKR wanted to distract us from Rosmerta and make us think something was weird with Tonks. She made her mopey. We were supposed to construct elaborate theories like we did with Percy in CoS, but the truth was much more simple than that. Tonks was in love with Remus! Joy! End of story
The only thing is that I wonder if the arc is complete, because we still have one more book. So I'm willing to withhold my absolute judgment on Tonks until then.
But this... this is something that- I agree- is NOT canon, but is a way of looking at the character from a fanfic point of view. How can I add more depth to what was once a really likeable character for me? Especially when I'm trying to write this story? ;)
You wouldn't see the reason for any man losing his powers being alluded to love, wouldn't you?
This is one of the things that bugged me SO much. James was obviously crazy about Lily for years before she decided to give in, and it doesn't sound like HE had any problems with his powers. ::Sigh::
In canon, I have tons of issues with how Tonks was presented. "Meta" might be the wrong term, but this is more an extrapolation of what's going on in her head. In my head, it's 100% fanon. :P
I'm doing the meta
Date: 2005-08-24 03:42 pm (UTC)I need to lance this boil, and then? I'm so going to go back to my knitting.
Re: But you see...
Date: 2005-08-24 10:12 pm (UTC)Let me know if you want me to go away and stick to my own side of the fandom, but I don't think this is a very accurate analogy. James wasn't a Metamorphmagus (as far as we know) and Tonks doesn't seem to have any problems performing magic in general, she just has trouble with one very specific thing, which is an inborn ability and seems to be mood-dependent and not entirely voluntary.
It would be a better analogy if James had trouble with one specific, mood-dependent bit of magic -- say, casting a Patronus charm, although Tonks doesn't seem to have any problems there -- at a time when Lily was not only rejecting his advances, but living undercover as a spy with a bunch of murderous anti-Muggle-born fanatics. (And while I doubt that we'll ever get enough backstory on Harry's parents for anything like this to appear in canon, I certainly wouldn't find it out of place in a fic.)
Re: But you see...
Date: 2005-08-24 11:52 pm (UTC)I think what irks me about the Tonks-losing-her-powers thing is again, the summation of symptoms. We hear about losing powers because of unrequited love twice- once (very explicitly) with Merope, and once (far more implied, but I believe that's the implication) with Tonks. Both women. We never hear about it with a guy. (Of course, let's be fair. Two people so far. Kind of limited, especially when there's only two genders.)
Admittedly one of my problems is I think this is CORNY. But that's just me ;) While unrequited love can suck, I think people have their ups and downs, and the loss of a magical power... ugh. If it had been more implied that Tonks just didn't CARE to metamorph, I would have been better off with that. But she lost an ability, and I think the regaining of the ability at the end when she seems to be holding hands with Lupin points pretty clearly to the cause of her loss being unrequited love. I think you can read more depth into it, but I also know that the 9-year old next door read it the first way- she's happy to have Remus and now she can metamorph again. And again, to be fair, the 9-year-old didn't think a.) it was that important or b.) that it was that worrisome.
Now, granted, I do think this whole development might be foreshadowing. I used James as an example, but I'm wondering if Harry won't lose something he can do because he's denied himself Ginny. I wouldn't be shocked. And I will shut up on the feminism part (but you won't get me to change my mind that it's really corny). But what bothers me with the loss of powers thing is the direct parallel to Merope. I mean, I liked Tonks. Merope was- and I really don't see any way around this- a woman who was not above kidnap and rape. What Merope did was absolutely contemptible, and that really influences my entire opinion of the character, so that when we got to the part where she lost her powers because of unrequited love, I was like "GOOD. She deserved it!" I had such a strong opinion of that in my mind, that to discover Tonks was going through the same thing... Ick. It just put Tonks in a light that really bothered me. If the Merope parallel had not been there, it might not bother me so much.
It's one of those things that I don't think is an absolute. I, personally, find it annoying and very distasteful. You obviously have a different interpretation of it. But I think it's nothing like if, oh, I don't know... she'd actually jumped Lupin in the hospital scene and had sex with him while he begged her to stop, or something where it's a very clear-cut case of "Tonks was WRONG." Rather, it's something that hits a trigger in me, partly because of personal experience. And I do think that perception matters a LOT when reading this.
Okay. I just got a phone call and am in a (ironically) depressed mood, so I'm going to end my treatise here because I'm tired of hearing myself talk. ;)