Real Life, Procrastination, and a touch of Meta

[lls_mutant]

You know, I didn't think you could be sick of bodily functions. But I swear, if I have to pee one more time... ::sigh:: Honestly. But that's hardly a new complaint, I'm sure.

The 'rents are coming for the weekend, which will be nice. They haven't been down since Grandma had her stroke back in January- hubby and I have gone up every single time. I think Mom needs to get away from Grandma for a bit. She's pretty much a saint about the whole thing, but it does drain her, and when you consider Grandma isn't even her mother.... Anyway, should be a nice weekend, but I'll be glad when the housecleaning is done! (On the bright side, I needed to clean the house. Badly.)

So I was bored and surfing on LJ, and kind of going to some journals I don't go to much because the owners are R/T shippers- or at least ship defenders. It's not that I find those journals offensive, it's just kind of like the ship threads and can't stand threads at FAP, y'know? If you're a shipper and want to defend a particular ship, you should be able to do so in your LJ without people coming around and telling you why they don't like that ship. But there was actually a really good discussion going on FAP between a few people (the Order of the Phoenix forum on the Tonks thread) that, y'know, actually had INTELLIGENT conversation. So I started surfing journals, and I came across this amusing little piece by snorkackcatcher. It features both het and slash, and while it has a successful R/T it actually gives Tonks her dignity, and has a twist that really cracked me up. But anyway. That wasn't my point. (Although you should go read it anyway, as long as you don't feel the need to start any sort of ship wars when you read R/T stuff.)



In the comments, I mentioned that rather than the stereotypes of lesbians, Tonks struck me more as the stereotype of a college student, a comment snorkackcatcher agreed with. And that got me thinking about Tonks.

You know the kind of college student I'm thinking when I think of Tonks. The kind who is full of fire to change the world, and determined that SHE is going to make a difference. I can see Tonks having that fire and passion... and that idealism. I can see her maintaining that all through her Auror training, especially since she seems to have a close association with Moody. Moody might be kind of creepy in his way, but I can see where a young Auror would idolize him. Heck, I have Sirius do it to an extent, although in my stuff he tends to idolize Damien Lupin more. But in GoF, Sirius talks about what a fantastic Auror Moody is, and how he refused to use the Unforgivable Curses if he could help it. (Or at least that's implied.) So anyway, I can see where Tonks would have this deep-seated belief that she's out to change the world and she can do it, and being an Auror is a great way to do so.

Then Voldemort comes back.

A lot has been made about Tonks's depression being about her being a green Auror and getting into something she didn't really anticipate. Let's say screw that for a moment, because that really IS very degrading to her as a woman (since we don't have a man having the same problem), and say that maybe it's something else... maybe it's Tonks realizing that her ideals are WRONG.

Not wrong in that she shouldn't believe in them. She should. But wrong in that she thinks she herself can save the world, that she can convince people of the way the world should be, and that all those she comes in contact with- especially those that outrank her- are worthy of her respect. But she can't change the world alone. Bellatrix defeated her and killed Sirius. She can't convince people of the way the world should be. No one is really listening to her, and she's basically having to follow orders she doesn't agree with. And those that outrank her are not always worthy of her respect. Even as early as OotP we saw that Tonks didn't totally trust Scrimgeour when she was worried about him asking questions, and then in HBP....

One of my predictions for HBP was that Amos Diggory would be the new Minister of Magic. I was wrong about the identity, but I was close to right about the reasons. I thought that JKR would chose someone who was anti-Voldemort, but who wasn't necessarily pro-Dumbledore, or behaving like Harry would think a Minister of Magic should. And we definitely see that, particularly in the case of Stan Shunpike, where it's obvious, even to the most casual reader, that Stan Shunpike is not a Death Eater, pretty much from the get-go.

We see that case, but it's insinuated that there's more. I'm writing this without having my book, so there might even be more cases mentioned that I'm forgetting. (I really need to do a reread.) But as an Auror- and one of the people being required to arrest these people- Tonks is, without a doubt, seeing things that aren't all that kosher in the Ministry. Now here's where I'm making a jump a bit. It's not canon, but I think it's not unreasonable, either. Tonks is having her ideal picture of being an Auror stripped away layer by layer, very rapidly, as she's being told to do things she doesn't agree with. And she can't stop it, because it doesn't seem like she's got enough power to change anyone's mind (I wouldn't expect her to, at her age). And she can't just up and quit, because a lot of what she is doing IS valuable and is what she wants to do. But we see her losing a lot of her more collegiate stereotypes, particularly the pink hair. (Of course, she gets it back at the end, but...)

The thing about the green Auror thing is that we don't see Tonks losing her nerve. If I remember rightly (and I very well may not), she does fine at the battle at Hogwarts at the end, and she doesn't seem to be having any real trouble with her post. But an Auror losing her idealism... now that I can buy.

It also adds a new layer to Tonks/Lupin. Both of them are being asked to do something they don't want to do. There's a difference, of course. Tonks is being asked to do something she believes is wrong, whereas Lupin is being asked to do something that must be extraordinarily painful. I've wondered how various characters feel about Lupin being asked to do his spying job. (And perhaps Tonks is losing some faith in Dumbledore as well? But really, I see no evidence for that one.) But at least it gives them something in common.

Sadly, this is all my thoughts. I still firmly believe that none of these layers that fandom is rapidly building onto Tonks are really clearly built on by JKR, but hey. I really liked Tonks in OotP and one of the big reasons Lupin/Tonks pissed me off was I HATED what it did to her character. So if I can find some rationalizations, at least for now.... I still, for the record, think that she would have been better off with Charlie Weasley. Someone (I want to say it might have even been snorkackchaser again) pointed out in the FAP discussion that while Tonks might not have been behaving well, Lupin was pretty darn manipulative too, bringing up Dumbledore's death as a shield against a conversation he didn't want to have. Very true. The man is a passive-agressive, manipulative, lying bastard when he wants to be. He really is. And he is old, poor, and dangerous- and even if Tonks doesn't believe these are issues, they will become issues because they are important in his mind. Tonks should have gone for Charlie Weasley, who has a strong attachment to his family but the courage, independence, and interest to go gallivanting off to Romania to do what he really wants to do. Of course, that requires them MEETING on the page, but what do you want? ;)



Anyway, I should get back to work. Not that I'm getting far anyway, which is why I'm writing this. ::Sigh::

ETA: Two pieces of writing posted: my Hitch Review, which I was actually fairly pleased with this time, and (Pooly, look away please) a little PWP. Which I shouldn't have been writing since it's NOT on my list, but at least the Hitch review was (although JUSTIN added the slashy comments to the picture captions. Not me. I only did the first one- the one about going up the stairs and down the banisters, which was really lame. But I suck at captions.)

Comments

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

What the heck is FPA? *just wondering, cause I'm curious about the discussions you mention...*
*stares at all the Tonks stuff* Did I ever tell you I think you're incredibly intelligent? I adore reading all your thoughts about the HP characters. And I keep quoting you. :P Fangirling is fun.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

FAP is Fiction Alley Park. (http://www.fictionalleypark.org) Nice big forum that's very general.

Thanks :) Just be warned I think it's all fanon- not canon ;)

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link! *goes see a bit* I'll probably end up hating them but still, I'm curious.
...
I love that icon *grins* *is an idiot*
Have you SEEN my new pictures? I know you don't like incest, but still...I got so little comments, even an EW would be nice.

BTW, I LOVE that PWP you made xDDDD It's so sweet!!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks :) FAP is actually really diverse, and there's certain sections that are very R/S friendly ;)

I have seen your pictures- at least the teasers, but I don't do the "ew" on incest. See, to me, you WARNED me. I feel like since there was a warning, if it's something I have a problem with, don't click. ::shrug:: I'm sure they're good- I like your stuff- but I avoid incest like the plague. Nothing personal- it doesn't matter who is writing/drawing it!

And thanks :) Glad you liked it!

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Well, the Lucius/Draco pic really isn´t THAT terrible, they're just standing there... :P But well, it's ok. I'll draw something less squicky next time, lol
Oh, I checked the site, and I got really sick with all the people squeeing over Remus/Tonks. Mainly cause of all the R/S bashing. ¬¬;

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

Lupin was pretty darn manipulative too, bringing up Dumbledore's death as a shield against a conversation he didn't want to have. Very true.

Good points on the rest, but how on earth is this manipulative? Dumbledore's body is still warm, and it's manipulative to not want to have a conversation about his love life right then? Remus didn't "bring up" Dumbledore's death -- Dumbledore had JUST DIED. Minutes ago. They had just learned about it when Harry came in to tell them. It's like about five minutes from "Dumbledore's dead" to "See! You should love me!" Honestly, who's the one who's really being manipulative there?

As for the rest -- I would like to think that this is what JKR is doing, but why then does she not take advantage of it? Why not explore the themes of loss of idealism and survivor's guilt and such, rather than leaving it up to the wishful thinking of Tonks fans? If that is JKR's purpose, she's doing it pretty badly, since it doesn't lead anywhere except to readers scratching their heads in confusion and wondering, "WFT pink hair?" That may change in Book 7, of course, but Tonks in Book 6 is an unfinished picture that neither the oft-cited "Harry's POV!!1!!!" excuse nor the "It's not the end of the story!" excuse can really get around. (People always forget that Harry's POV comes from JKR's POV. If she wants us to see it, Harry will see it.)

I wouldn't be surprised if JKR were up to something else by changing the character and misleading the readers. She may not be, but I do wonder if everybody is beding over backwards to explain Tonks when the real reason is, "JKR is playing us all for fools, and loving every minute of it."

She did it in CoS with "Who is the heir of Slytherin?"; she did it all through PoA with "Sirius Black is EVIL!!!"; she did it in GoF with just about everything that happened in the book. It's one of her very favourite tricks, one that she uses often and not always with good reason, but rather just because it's tricky. The entire plot of GoF, including the ridiculous imposter scheme, was invented only to get Harry to touch a Portkey. That was the entire purpose. Doing something to make Tonks act wacky for some as-yet-unknown reason (and letting readers stew over it for years) is pretty tame in comparison.

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

People always forget that Harry's POV comes from JKR's POV. If she wants us to see it, Harry will see it.)

OR, if she can't contrive a way for Harry to see it, she'll put it in the first few chapters of the book.

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Um, I thought it was pretty clear that JKR WAS playing us all for fools with Tonks, all through HBP -- because we were supposed to think she was the one who slipped Katie the cursed necklace and sent Slughorn the poisoned mead. That's why she was stationed in Hogsmeade and made to appear, seemingly out of nowhere, right before Katie turned up with the necklace; that's also why JKR called attention to the lack-of-morphing and the Patronus change, both of which can be read as big honking hints that we should question whether she's really who she seems to be. But I think this is purely a red herring for the Draco-Rosmerta subplot, which got wrapped up at the end of the book. (I suppose it's possible that she could be pulling a double fake-out on us and still have something up her sleeve, but I doubt that she would have said right up front in the TLC-Mugglenet interview that she was using Tonks as a red herring, if that were the case.)

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

That may be all there was to it, sure, except that the explanation given at the end was inadequate. (Of course, we can extrapolte and expand on it into we're blue in the face, but as far as what was in the text? It didn't quite cut it.) That's not too surprising, though, because JKR is pretty damn clunky when it comes to character changes, and her "explanations" for their behaviour is hit or miss (usually miss, unless "the story wouldn't work if they didn't act that way" is a good explanation). I just think that the simplest explanation is uninteresting and doesn't add much, either to the character or to the overall plot (which is FAR more important, in my mind).

And I think it's highly amusing that everbody jumped all over the one simple spoon-fed explanation (either loving or hating it, but never, ever questioning it) without bothering to look at other possibilities. :)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oh, I fully, 100% agree with you that Lupin had every REASON to want out of the conversation. I think, actually, his manipulation was in good taste- like when he manipulated Harry in PoA, laying the guilt trip. Like selfishness, I don't think manipulation is always bad. And realistically, he probably couldn't shout "No! Okay? Just NO!" either ;)

But what he did (or at least attempted to do) was guilt Tonks (and everyone else) into delaying the conversation. I would say it's by far the lesser of two evils, and perhaps he had to do it. But it was manipulation to an extent. I'd like to get into his head there a bit better, and given that we've seen him lay the guilt trip before.... I think Remus understands people very well, and instinctively goes for the right targets to get out of situations. So I do think it was manipulative, I just think it was done with good cause, because NOT being manipulative would have been even worse. And you're right- he shouldn't have even HAD to do it.

As for the rest -- I would like to think that this is what JKR is doing, but why then does she not take advantage of it? Why not explore the themes of loss of idealism and survivor's guilt and such, rather than leaving it up to the wishful thinking of Tonks fans? If that is JKR's purpose, she's doing it pretty badly,

I do agree that it's fandom thinking far more than JKR's manufacture. Even the survivor's guilt thing is washed away in canon. But I liked Tonks in OotP, and I'd like to believe that JKR is doing these things. She's not. None of these complicated reasons ARE canon- at least, not at the moment. In fact, rather the opposite. But for fanon- which often times goes deeper- what can I come up with? How can I like a character again? Let's look at some of these reasons that people are tossing out for Tonks to act as she does. And loss of idealism is one I haven't seen people play with. I wanted to do some wishful thinking right now :)

I do wonder about how canon R/T is some days. They SEEM to be holding hands, and the more I repeat it the more I cling to her phrasing in the interview, and when she brings the subject of R/T up. And there are no hints in OotP, and no hints towards Remus's feelings in HBP. (And you are 100% right about Harry's POV, and the fact it's one of the weakest excuses for us not to know something.) But I also have this feeling that if I get my hopes up it's not canon, I'll be very disappointed.

The loss of idealism is definitely a theme I don't really see JKR playing with. Maybe to an extent, but certainly not in Tonks, and I'm not even sure about the Trio (S.P.E.W. really could have gone somewhere there). But it's an interesting angle to me, if nothing else because I'm playing with the same thing with Sirius. This is definitely a theory for fandom, not canon. Sadly, my canon theory goes like this:

JKR wanted to distract us from Rosmerta and make us think something was weird with Tonks. She made her mopey. We were supposed to construct elaborate theories like we did with Percy in CoS, but the truth was much more simple than that. Tonks was in love with Remus! Joy! End of story.

Here's to hoping I get to eat my words on that one!!!!

[krisomniac.livejournal.com]

Hehe yay Charlie/Tonks. (And no, I didn't read the R/T story.I will never intentionally read an R/T story.)

But as for Tonks. The loss of her ideals as the root of her powers? Still, that doesn't make sense with the pink hair at the end. By putting that pink hair in, Jo has pretty much negated any rationalisation that Tonks' pining had anything to do with anything except Remus Lupin. Even the poison/impersonation theories can't explain this point away. Ah well.

Although, just to make myself feel better I was listening to that darned page 806 of OOtP (funny how the page I resented for so long, I cling to now). Sirius has just gone through the veil and Tonks was recently knocked out. Who goe to Tonks? Moody. Who stares at Sirius, talks about Sirius, reacts to Sirius and Sirius only? Harry and Remus.

If there is any romantic feeling between those two (R/T not Remus/Harry), it did NOT exist in OOtP. Of that, if little else, I am certain.

er. this hasn't made much sense. My brain is slowly cooking on schoolwork and an incoherent Blah against R/T (though not their friendship. I get that) is all I can manage.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I LIKED Charlie/Tonks. I really didn't hold much hope for it in canon, since they've never met, but hey. It could have been fun.

The loss of her ideals as the root of her powers?

Oh, no. Definitely not. I think JKR was pretty darn clear that that had entirely to do with unrequited love, especially with the Merope parallel. But the rest of her powers outside the metamorphing seem to be intact. I mean, she heals Harry's nose and sends a Patronus with no problem. (And her Patronus might be vague from Harry's POV, but so are Remus's and Dumbledore's in PoA. I think they just move too fast, and JKR doesn't want to tell us what they are.) I just wanted a deeper root to her general depression, and some depth to Tonks in general.

If there is any romantic feeling between those two (R/T not Remus/Harry), it did NOT exist in OOtP. Of that, if little else, I am certain.

Could not agree more. If they were together in OotP, why wasn't the joint Christmas present from Remus and Tonks? Tonks gave Harry something, after all. And 100% agree on the DoM. If there is a relationship (ififififififif... stop saying if, Liss), it started at the end of HBP, as far as I'm concerned. (Although I still like the idea that he slept with her a couple of times and that really screwed with her head.)

Like I told ignipes, I liked Tonks in OotP. I've never liked the idea of her with Remus, but I'd like to like Tonks again. And the idealism thing is at least fun to play with!

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

The more I think about it, your loss-of-ideals theory does make a lot of sense (and without my really meaning for it to happen that way, it kind of turned into a steady undercurrent in the Tonks-fic I'm writing now, in which she gets ordered to interrogate Stan Shunpike in prison, among other things). She struck me as somebody who'd had the world knocked out from under her feet on a whole lot of fronts in HBP, and I don't think for a minute that it's just Remus, or just anything else, for that matter.

You know, if I weren't really fond of the canon ships as they are, this whole essay would be giving me Tonks / Percy plot bunnies galore (once he grows up a bit and learns to think for himself, that is).

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Please don't say that, because I don't like the current ship and like Tonks/Weasley ships very, very much, and really don't need any more plotbunnies! :) I had started Tonks/Crouch around Valentine's Day, (or at least Crouch lusting after Tonks, thanks to that challenge), and it was scary how easily that came about.

Thanks on a serious note though :) I'm having a harder time buying the green Auror theory, just because Tonks does seem to retain most of her powers, minus the metamorphing. But also, I admit I'm just liking the loss of ideas bit better. It's something I really remember going through, and admittedly is much easier to write.

I really hope you're right that it's not just Remus- I've decided to withhold judgment until Book 7. If we get Tonks back exactly as she was in OotP, I'll be disappointed. If we get her back with humor, but toned down, I'll definitely concede there's more going on. I might have to check out your fic when you're done with it. I really don't like the R/T pairing for a variety of reasons, but I really liked Tonks in OotP, and I'd like to see what a good fanfic writer does with her with this new round of canon.

[wickedevra.livejournal.com]

I liked your Hitch review - that was a very enjoyable movie. And Will Smith rocks! Hope you have a great weekend with the parents :-) (Ugh, housecleaning, I am trying to catch up with that) *Hugs*

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks- I'm glad someone read it :) I did get a kick out of it. (I just don't always review movies that I just like. I need something concrete to say.) And Will Smith is too cool. He's got to be one of my favorites.

And thanks! I'll just be so glad when the house is clean. (It pretty much is now.) ::hugs backatcha::

But you see...

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

here's where I'm going to be difficult.

All of this is conjecture and thought. There is nothing to support this. The fact that people have to sit down and spin all these threads and reasoning to justify what we've seen is really sad because Ms. Rowling shows us nothing, and then preens with her 'when so and so, the mistress of mystery said that romance is so and so, and ergo Tonks and Lupin is a red herring' the hell? Nah, that was badly written, sorry.

For instance, we can sympathize with Draco Malfoy because we see him crying in the bathroom and his balking at killing a man. So, we can't call Draco weak, because well... he's trying to be his own man, win his own respect, but the price is too high and he wrote a cheque that his ass couldn't cash. I can respect that.

With regards to Lupin, in a few sentences, Ms. Rowling sketches a picture of an unhappy man, a man that is well... freezing in the winter of his discontent, so whatever happens afterwards, we can sympathize, because we've seen a hint of what Lupin is going through.

Tonks? Now, my issues with Tonks is, she does her duties well enough, yeah, and the Tonks defenders are saying that we could give her props for this. The hell? Props to her for doing her job?! Doing what she's trained to do? What she has had to be qualified to do?
I call bullshit.

Also, they project some reasons for Tonks behaviour that range from the sublime (her issues of identity, her relations with her mum and whatnot) to the ridiculous. I can't defend that hospital scene at all, where she manipulates Lupin (he's flayed open by his mentor dying, he has just found out Snape's role in the betrayal of the Potter's deaths and two weeks ago, in the Potterverse, his friend died) and yeah, her hair turns pink and she's happy, because she got what she want. Never mind the valid issues that were raised by Lupin, and the fact that it wasn't the right time do anything. The others around her agree, and Whooo hooo!

I would have been able to perhaps sympathize with Tonks if we had some glimpse of her personality, 'serious and driven' doesn't do it for me. Being able to recount what was going on doesn't do it for me. She speaks english fluently, why shouldn't she? It's a dark time, so yeah why shouldn't she be serious?

But as it is now, Tonks doesn't sit well with me beause if she were a man, the behaviour wouldn't have been like that. Look at Snape and the pressures that he's under, look at Sirius and the pressures that he was under. You wouldn't see the reason for any man losing his powers being alluded to love, wouldn't you? Rosalind in As You Like It was right, to rahtid, no man ever died of love.

Hooo *exhales* it seems that I still have issues with how Tonks has been presented, but yeah. If we were shown some sort of glimpses of stuff, I'd have been happy. This whole trying to come to some consensus on flimsy evidence is fallacious, in my opinion.

Re: But you see...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

All of this is conjecture and thought. There is nothing to support this. The fact that people have to sit down and spin all these threads and reasoning to justify what we've seen is really sad because Ms. Rowling shows us nothing, and then preens with her 'when so and so, the mistress of mystery said that romance is so and so, and ergo Tonks and Lupin is a red herring' the hell?

Oh, please- canon-wise, don't get me wrong!!!!!! I agree with you 100% and that's why I added the caveat that this is all fanon interpretation. As I said in my response to ignipes: Sadly, my canon theory goes like this:

JKR wanted to distract us from Rosmerta and make us think something was weird with Tonks. She made her mopey. We were supposed to construct elaborate theories like we did with Percy in CoS, but the truth was much more simple than that. Tonks was in love with Remus! Joy! End of story

The only thing is that I wonder if the arc is complete, because we still have one more book. So I'm willing to withhold my absolute judgment on Tonks until then.

But this... this is something that- I agree- is NOT canon, but is a way of looking at the character from a fanfic point of view. How can I add more depth to what was once a really likeable character for me? Especially when I'm trying to write this story? ;)

You wouldn't see the reason for any man losing his powers being alluded to love, wouldn't you?

This is one of the things that bugged me SO much. James was obviously crazy about Lily for years before she decided to give in, and it doesn't sound like HE had any problems with his powers. ::Sigh::

In canon, I have tons of issues with how Tonks was presented. "Meta" might be the wrong term, but this is more an extrapolation of what's going on in her head. In my head, it's 100% fanon. :P

I'm doing the meta

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

as we speak.

I need to lance this boil, and then? I'm so going to go back to my knitting.

Re: But you see...

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

This is one of the things that bugged me SO much. James was obviously crazy about Lily for years before she decided to give in, and it doesn't sound like HE had any problems with his powers. ::Sigh::

Let me know if you want me to go away and stick to my own side of the fandom, but I don't think this is a very accurate analogy. James wasn't a Metamorphmagus (as far as we know) and Tonks doesn't seem to have any problems performing magic in general, she just has trouble with one very specific thing, which is an inborn ability and seems to be mood-dependent and not entirely voluntary.

It would be a better analogy if James had trouble with one specific, mood-dependent bit of magic -- say, casting a Patronus charm, although Tonks doesn't seem to have any problems there -- at a time when Lily was not only rejecting his advances, but living undercover as a spy with a bunch of murderous anti-Muggle-born fanatics. (And while I doubt that we'll ever get enough backstory on Harry's parents for anything like this to appear in canon, I certainly wouldn't find it out of place in a fic.)

Re: But you see...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Hey, as long as everything stays on the nice, civil level it's been on and the conversation's intelligent, I certainly don't mind :) And as long as you don't mind me talking a lot, just because I like to, not because I'm trying to overwhelm you and convince you you're wrong.

I think what irks me about the Tonks-losing-her-powers thing is again, the summation of symptoms. We hear about losing powers because of unrequited love twice- once (very explicitly) with Merope, and once (far more implied, but I believe that's the implication) with Tonks. Both women. We never hear about it with a guy. (Of course, let's be fair. Two people so far. Kind of limited, especially when there's only two genders.)

Admittedly one of my problems is I think this is CORNY. But that's just me ;) While unrequited love can suck, I think people have their ups and downs, and the loss of a magical power... ugh. If it had been more implied that Tonks just didn't CARE to metamorph, I would have been better off with that. But she lost an ability, and I think the regaining of the ability at the end when she seems to be holding hands with Lupin points pretty clearly to the cause of her loss being unrequited love. I think you can read more depth into it, but I also know that the 9-year old next door read it the first way- she's happy to have Remus and now she can metamorph again. And again, to be fair, the 9-year-old didn't think a.) it was that important or b.) that it was that worrisome.

Now, granted, I do think this whole development might be foreshadowing. I used James as an example, but I'm wondering if Harry won't lose something he can do because he's denied himself Ginny. I wouldn't be shocked. And I will shut up on the feminism part (but you won't get me to change my mind that it's really corny). But what bothers me with the loss of powers thing is the direct parallel to Merope. I mean, I liked Tonks. Merope was- and I really don't see any way around this- a woman who was not above kidnap and rape. What Merope did was absolutely contemptible, and that really influences my entire opinion of the character, so that when we got to the part where she lost her powers because of unrequited love, I was like "GOOD. She deserved it!" I had such a strong opinion of that in my mind, that to discover Tonks was going through the same thing... Ick. It just put Tonks in a light that really bothered me. If the Merope parallel had not been there, it might not bother me so much.

It's one of those things that I don't think is an absolute. I, personally, find it annoying and very distasteful. You obviously have a different interpretation of it. But I think it's nothing like if, oh, I don't know... she'd actually jumped Lupin in the hospital scene and had sex with him while he begged her to stop, or something where it's a very clear-cut case of "Tonks was WRONG." Rather, it's something that hits a trigger in me, partly because of personal experience. And I do think that perception matters a LOT when reading this.

Okay. I just got a phone call and am in a (ironically) depressed mood, so I'm going to end my treatise here because I'm tired of hearing myself talk. ;)

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

If only you actually believed what you said. Ah well. In a perfect world, a perfect world...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yup :) The thing is, I can believe that in writing Tonks, you can put a lot of good stuff in her head. I just don't think that JKR was thinking that deeply. It IS a subplot, and I think she wanted to give some happiness to some characters.

But sadly, I think serious romance just ain't JKR's forte. But that's okay- it gives me something to rant about, and ranting is much more fun ;)

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

The thing is, I think there IS something more going on with Tonks, something potentially important, and I think hooking up with Remus was, as JKR said in that Infamous Interview of Doom, a red herring designed to make us THINK Tonks was just all mopey and stupid over Remus. The more I think about it (and go back through the book), the more I'm convinced.

I don't think JKR is a particularly good romance writer either, but I certainly wouldn't put it past her to use romance as a plot point or red herring. Besides, would you WANT JKR to be a good romance writer? I usually equate "romance writer" with those crappy bodice rippers I read in ninth grade...

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I hope you're right. The thing is, I read that quote very differently.

She compared what she did to Tonks with what she did with Percy. And what she did with Percy worked. In CoS, Percy kept showing up at the wrong places at the wrong times, looking flusterd and guilty, and Ginny obviously knew he had a secret that he didn't want out. What you were meant to think was that it had to do with the Chamber of Secrets- either Percy himself was opening it somehow, or that Percy was trying to catch the culprit to further his own ambition. At the end, we find out that no, both of those were wrong and it was just that Percy had a girlfriend! There it really worked, for several reasons: 1.) It took the suspicion off of Ginny- Percy certainly seemed like a more likely candidate, if nothing else because of his age and ambition. 2.) It was very plausible at the end- and kind of funny. A boy that age would be embarrassed to be caught with a girlfriend, and of course he'd threaten his sister.

I think she was trying to do something similar with Tonks. Look how mysterious Tonks is acting! She can't metamorph! Her Patronus is different, and she's around not long after some of these crimes. Is she behind them? Is that really Tonks? Or is it an imposter taking Polyjuice? And then you find out at the end no, it was Draco controlling Madame Rosmerta, and Tonks was really in love with Lupin and THAT'S what was going on with her. I think that was what JKR meant by the red herring- she certainly wouldn't tell us in advance if she's plotting to fool us in Book 7!

I do hope there's more, and I wouldn't necessarily put tons of money on Tonks and Lupin being perfectly happy right now. (They might be. But I'd rather they had some issues. I don't think Lupin's an easy person to be in a relationship with- no matter who you are!)

I don't think of romance writer as the crappy bodice ripper novels. I'd like her to be a bit better at the serious stuff, but not in excruciating detail. I like Harry/Ginny as a pair, and I actually thought a lot of the buildup was fine, but she really did the "tell don't show" sort of writing for the time they spent together, which was very anticlimatic. And I do wish she'd treat women with a little more backbone in love. But oh well. Can't have everything! :)

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

she certainly wouldn't tell us in advance if she's plotting to fool us in Book 7!

Ah, but she didn't say that, did she? She's always done stuff like that, mentioned in semi-offhand comments that maybe people don't pay much attention to, or are so vague no one really understands what she's talking about. I'm perfectly prepared to be fooled by something in book 7, whether or not it has anything to do with Remus or Tonks or both of them together.

And I strongly feel that Tonks' behavior was, at the very least, not completely attributable to Remus. I'm starting to think it's more even than that, but that's my personal reading of it, and you obviously don't want to give JKR that much credit.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It's not that I don't WANT to give her that much credit... it's I don't think she put that much thought into it.

I don't think JKR set out to write a character that was deliberately sickening to me. The simple truth is I don't think she thought about what this character would say- or this possible reading of this character (just like I'm thinking she didn't think about the possibility people might read Sirius and Remus as more than friends.) I don't find any one action (except the Evil Hospital Scene) damning; it's the sum of all of the attributes I see that make me not like how Tonks was written. And obviously, not everyone reads it the same.

I think there's room for the survivor's guilt argument in canon. I don't remember (although if you do and have evidence, please correct me!) anything explicitely saying that Tonks was upset about her job, or nervous, or the whole green Auror tossed into war for the first time thing. I find that a fanon explanation of Tonks's behavior, because there's nothing in the narrative to explicitly state that. And the whole thing I just proposed, with the loss of her ideals- again, this is an extrapolation.

I DO think that 90% of Tonks's problem and behavior was attributable to Remus, as evidenced by the pink hair at the funeral and the symbolic return of her powers. I'll hold my entire judgment until we see Tonks's attitude in Book 7: we get her back exactly as she was in OotP, sorry, no, her entire problems were Remus related. We get her back happier but subdued, okay then. However, while I think this, I don't think JKR meant for this to come off as an anti-feminist slant; I think it's just one way that it can be read.

There are ways that JKR could have done this that would have been far more palatable to me. But the big thing was I really never had the impression Remus was interested in her. I didn't. Not a single hint. The staring into the fire as music older than Tonks played was not a good hint to me, and the fact that Remus didn't even know (or seem to care) where she was spending Christmas really sealed it. There was NOTHING in OotP. If we the reader had had an indication that Remus was interested in Tonks, I wouldn't find it quite so offensive- I would have found the idea that he's stonewalling her much more believable. But there was absolutely, positively nothing for me. (Incidentally, I don't find the idea of Remus stonewalling Sirius like that believable, either.)

And don't get me wrong. I like JKR as an author. I think a lot of what she does is very brilliant. But I think, like every author, she has her flaws, and her romantic subplots- particularly this one- is one of the biggies. It's certainly not going to get me to stop reading. Realistically, we're talking 3 pages in a 700 page book, and more than that, 3 pages in an over-2000 page series. And while I don't like the way she writes any of her serious romances (even if I do agree with the pairings, outside of this one), again, it's a very small percentage of what JKR writes.

Sure, I complain about it. But me calling her on some writing I think is crappy is hardly a bad thing. It means that I'm not afraid to have my own opinions. I'm certainly not saying I'm a better writer than she is or anything, or even that she's a crappy writer. Just that she's bad at this one area. And I complain about it because my fandom interest- and yes, what keeps me in fandom (*as opposed to just being a major fan of the books)- is the older generation. Am I not willing to give her more credit on this issue? Yup- you called it. I'm not. She hasn't shown me anything in the writing- or even in her interviews- to prove me wrong. (Although I will be VERY happy to eat my words. I never thought Voldemort was anything more than your stock evil Overlord villian, either, and very cheerfully was proved wrong.) However, I'm willing to give her credit for a lot more, and a lot more important things, like Harry himself, his overall plot, some brilliant twists, Ron, Hermione, the twins, Percy, the marauders themselves, Moody, Tonks pre-OotP, Neville ::hugs Neville!:: and Luna... and getting millions of kids to read. So that I'm not willing to give her credit on one subplot bothers me not at all!

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

So...basically you're saying you can't read anything into canon that isn't explicitly stated. That's fine. Must be kinda boring that way, but it's your prerogative. I seem to be getting that argument a lot lately. It's odd, too, because I get it from people who make wild theories all the time and try to pass them off as canon. But hey, the purely literal interpretation is just as valid as anything else.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Well, yes and no.

I think that you can make arguments for something that's not explicitly stated. Continuing on Tonks: is the argument above about her losing her idealism logical? Hell, yes! Absolutely! Will I accept it in a fan story? YES. Again, absolutely. In fact, I would EXPECT a writer to put that kind of thought into the characters. Do I think it is canon? That's where I'd say no.

I think "canon" is defined as what is presented in the book. Canon is generally hard and fast, and there really isn't much debate over it. Is it canon that Draco tried to kill Dumbledore? Yes. Is it canon that Fleur loves Bill? Yes. These are the things that are presented by the author.

However, "canon" is the bones of the matter. In any work, no one agrees completely on everything. I mean, symbolism. I could tell you that in Gone With the Wind, Gerald's fall from the horse to his death is symbolic of the fall of the Confederacy. I could make one heck of a case for it. And Margarat Mitchell could have looked at me blankly and said "Um, what? No, I just needed Gerald to die and that seemed like the most appropriate way." We hang our interpretations on the bones of canon, and that's what makes the reading unique to all of us.

I think that reading a book does require you to do that. The thing is, like Christmas trees, we aren't going to hang things the same way. That's why I can read the books with the assumption that Remus and Sirius are lovers, and other people can read it and not see anything but a deep platonic friendship. I can say socks symbolize something (I haven't decided what yet, but something), and other people can look at me and tell me I'm nuts. Interpretation is what made the internet fans pin a noble personality on Regulus Black (turns out they were right!), what makes people wonder about the tickings of Voldemort... and what makes people assume that there is or isn't something more going on with Tonks. I personally don't see the canonical evidence for anything more, except the survivor's guilt, but that doesn't mean that a reader can't add other interpretations. I might agree, in fact, I might like the reader's interpretations better than what is presented. But I will not say that it's what JKR intended, because I can't read her mind, and it's not what's written on the page.

I seem to be getting that argument a lot lately. It's odd, too, because I get it from people who make wild theories all the time and try to pass them off as canon.

You know, the thing about that statement is that I've never made claim that any of my wild theories ARE canon. (Heck, none of my not-so-wild theories, like Peter's hand not being able to Transfigure and thus denying him his Animagus form and keeping him bound to Voldemort, are canon.) I like- and propose- plausible theories. Theories that make sense. I'll even happily accept theories and cheerfully work them into my own writing. But they're just that: theories. Canon is what comes from JKR, and what comes from JKR only. The misbelief here is that canon is the be-all and end-all, and is automatically superior to anything that isn't canon. Does canon trump certain things? Yes. But the fact that something isn't canon doesn't mean it can't be utterly fascinating or supported by canon.

So what's given to us IN CANON right now is that Tonks does have some issues with survivor's guilt, and that a LOT of her problems have to do with Remus. It is not canon that anything else is true... BUT it is not canon that it is not, either. I mean, I'll admit that. What bothers me is when people INSIST that there were other, canonical reasons to assume Tonks was depressed. Not that we were given, no. There are other plausible reasons for Tonks to be depressed, but they've come from the fans and interpretation, not from JKR.

[nassima.livejournal.com]

Great Tonks post!

Yeah, my personal Tonks has a lot of ideals, too. And she's able to keep them because obviously she's been very sucessful earlier: as you said, she looks like an efficient auror, a skilled wizard (and this is canon, as we know that being an auror implies having being very good in numerous subjects!), someone who can be trusted with her own missions. So, during OotP, she someone who believes in herself.

Though I agree that it would have become progressively harder to believe that she can save the world alone (with the battle at the Ministry and Voldemort gaining power etc.), I wouldn't say she lost this in HBP. First of all, since OotP, we see her hide things to her hierachy, and find her real role models in the Order of the Phoenix, amongst whose Moddy, not at the Ministry. So this shouldn't have changed during HBP, as the only real surprise she could have had was Snape mudering Dumbledore.

And then, her love for Remus looks to me like exactly this: the idea that she can save him (from being too poor, too old, and a werewolf) by loving him. And all the physical transformations (or rather lack thereof) she shows during HBP could be interpreted as her (unconscious) way to show her determination to follow her goal until the end!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Good point about her already hiding things. I'll have to think on some of that!

And then, her love for Remus looks to me like exactly this: the idea that she can save him (from being too poor, too old, and a werewolf) by loving him.

This is something I am really hoping WILL come up in canon, although I doubt it. I've thought that about Tonks/Remus too, because Remus is RIGHT in certain ways. While some of the things he cites don't have to be issues (poor and old), if he choses to make them issues, they will be. (And obviously he has chosen to do so!) Tonks has never really struck me as understanding Remus- which is actually a thread I've been seeing in those close to him. Sirius comments on the full moon, and then pulls the Prank. James refers to the lycanthropy as Remus's "furry little problem", which with the way Remus discusses it with Harry (when it's obvious Harry doesn't completely understand either), he seems to accept- but acknowledge- that James couldn't fully understand it either. And then there's Tonks. She might come to understand it, but I don't think she truly does right now.

I'll be interested to see if JKR ever does anything with that!

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

I like that little bit of meta. You strike me as someone sane. I happen to like sane people.

Oh, why can't R/T and R/S get along? R/T is so perfectly imperfect and fraught with passive-aggressiveness and one-sided obsession! Not kittens and puppies and baby bunny rabbits.

The loss of idealism thing is something that kinda struck me too, and I wrote the R/T ficathon about it. (Well, someone had to be the fly in the ointment, really.) She does remind me of someone so much like myself, going into your dreams with all kind of great moral integrity and coming out utterly disillusioned, hateful and misanthropic.

Film school will do that to you.

Sorry for rambling.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Thanks :) I try very hard to be sane. As much as I love the HP world... they're fictional characters.

Oh, why can't R/T and R/S get along? R/T is so perfectly imperfect and fraught with passive-aggressiveness and one-sided obsession! Not kittens and puppies and baby bunny rabbits.

Got me! Sirius is dead. They don't even conflict. I can even get away with my version of Remus deciding he's gay when he's 15, because he gets into a relationship with Sirius by 17 and stays there until 21. How's he supposed to figure out he's bi when he's focused on one person? I'm not much for R/T in general, but I suspect I might like it better if I read a non-smut, non-cute piece of fanfic. (I'm actually writing an R/S-->R/T one for a challenge, which baffles me, but hey.)

She does remind me of someone so much like myself, going into your dreams with all kind of great moral integrity and coming out utterly disillusioned, hateful and misanthropic.

There's not a lot in canon to really suggest that JKR thought of it, but yeah. I think a lot of people go through that to some degree, and with the way Scrimgeour is acting.... She's just at the right age, too.

Anyway, no worries about rambling. I'm not overly coherent myself. (In fact, I'm quite ready to go back to bed :P )