Giggling Because

[lls_mutant]

You know, I can't help but giggle every time I see the complaint "ALL the good MWPP fic out there has R/S in it."

First of all, no, that's an exaggeration. I can think of a few good pieces that don't. (Heck, I wrote one of 'em. Not that I'm modest or anything at the moment.) But more than that...

Well then, write some!!!!!! If you want to see gen MWPP fic, or MWPP fic that has het romances, write it!! Gen MWPP fic IS sadly lacking, which is a shame because there is a lot of great fodder for it. And I know if it's gen, I'll certainly go read it! (I admit I hesitate on het, unless it's James/Lily, because I rarely like the OCs.) Some of the best MWPP art ::coughTinaLingcough:: is 90% gen (the last 10% being J/L), so why not go write the fiction to go with it?

Ah well. Till then, I'll just snicker. Cause I'm still in a bitchy mood, although at least now it's a happy bitchy type thing :)

Comments

[momebie.livejournal.com]

I do often wonder at the fandom, just the HP one in general. There are so many fan fic writers out there in this fandom that are amazing...where as I've tried out some others and it's like reading fanfic.net on a day when the middle school's are out. Yegh.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

I've only had one other fandom, and the club I was in was sort of selective, so the quality of writing there was pretty darn good. But yeah, I just am amazed.

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

Amen. Sing it.

I'm in the process of writing two MWPP genfics: one of which is a comedy and the other being a way for me to write in my own experiences as a survivor of abuse but using a fictional character to distance myself from it. I love genfic to infinite plus, and find myself writing more and more of it these days. But don't whine and bitch about it, seriously plz.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oooh. I'll have to read those when you're done. I really, really like comedy MWPP fics (because, let's face it, that's half of what those boys are made for), and the other one sounds very interesting. (I did most of my Issues Fics in Pern fandom.) I'm definitely a genfic fan, although my big opus fic is between gen fic and romance. Romance (as strictly defined by fandom, anyway) only gets you so far. But I definitely need to write more genfic. I've only done one foray into the Weasleys, and again, there's just too much fun there.

[ignipes.livejournal.com]

A lot of the really bad MWPP fic has R/S in it, too. ;)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent point!!!!!!!!

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

"ALL the good MWPP fic out there has R/S in it."

Yeah, I love it when people use that as an anti R/S argument--please, criticise us some more! Ahem.

There is masses of het MWPP fic out there, but sadly the vast majority of it is Mary-Sue hell stuff (there doesn't seem to be that much J/L for some reason, though I don't actively seek that out, principally because I very seldom see Lily characterised to my liking in any fic). Most of it's on FF.net.

I've seen quite a few Snape-centric MWPP-era fics, but I don't actually like them much either, because too many of them characterise Snape as this poor lickle fluffy bunny victim of the nasty Marauders. Grr.

Actually, I've just remembered that the very worst MWPP fic I ever read was R/S and it didn't even have the 'so bad it's brilliant' redeeming quality of the Mary-Sue stuff, it was actually downright offensive. Unsurprisingly, it was also on the Pit of Voles. Can't win 'em all I s'pose.

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

Ooh, in which case I have a rec for you: "The Six Month Secret of Severus Snape", by Dust Bunny Assassin. Marauders-era genfic, featuring a not-very-nice Snape. Fantastic. I think it's been niffled, so if you want to find it the Nifflers forum at FAP should have it.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

You (and ignipes) are right- that some of the worst stuff IS R/S too.

I haven't read too many of the Snape-centric fics, because honestly (and this is SO reflected in my fics), Snape doesn't fascinate me like he does many. Well, he does, but I only want JKR Snape, for the most part.

I know there's a lot of het stuff over on Immeritus. I don't know how good the quality is, but some of what I've read (Requiem, Phoenix Tears) has been very good. (Of course, neither of those are MWPP era.) Sadly, Immeritus doesn't have quite the fic-fame that some other sites do!

[kuggerboy.livejournal.com]

Why do you consider gen and het the only alternatives to R/S?

I whine about it, or I whine about something close enough to it. I think it was the first thing that I ever hated about Wolfstar, actually.

I think the popularity of R/S is the problem; it sometimes gets in the way of more original and (IMAO) interesting ideas. *Tries to be unbiased* There’s good alternative MWPP fic, but it probably wouldn't get half as much recognition as a mediocre R/S fic with teh fangirl appeal. All overly-popular pairings (movies, books, music, etc, for that matter...NTP) are going to be targeted for that sort of resentment. R/S especially, since R/S is the only overly-popular MWPP pairing. H/Hr, H/L, H/G are all overly popular, but they can kind of battle for turf, and it is harder to blame the one pairing as the reason your favourite parings (Harry/Susan, Hermione/Viktor, Luna/Justin, Ginny/Traffic) are not as popular as you think they should be. You just sort of have to blame society and the Harry Potter fandom as a whole. That isn’t true for R/S. And not only is R/S convenient to blame for the lack of alternative pairings for Remus and Sirius, it can be blamed for the lack of diversity in MWPP fanfiction as a whole. (And I am not saying it necessarily should be blamed.)

Yeah, people could write their own, and then read it back to themselves, but then you would know how it ended. There would be no interesting perspectives or ideas, because you know, it would all be your own. It's just not the same for a lot of people. Does that make sense?

I really don’t know if I want to make a joke about Puppyshippers overreacting here or not. Hmm....

[gunderpants.livejournal.com]

Man, are you a masochist or something?

[kuggerboy.livejournal.com]

I normally like to consider myself a bit of a switch, actually.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Well, I could write that Remus/Alphard fic that mackittenx wants me to write.... (I'm still tempted by that.)

I do see what you're saying, and actually, I do agree that there's a lack of good genfic for this era. I actually don't like R/S fic that's set before an absolute minimum of 16, just because I don't think most kids would figure out and accept homosexuality extremely young, especially when they have so many other issues going on. And then, too, to me the most interesting aspects are the social angles. Why write slash if you're not going to write the issues and problems and everything that goes with it? Sirius and Remus are both already rejected- Sirius to an extent by his family (he certainly implies that the rejection was mutual), and Remus by society at large. Anyway, the point is, if I'm reading about MWPP at 13, I don't want to see any mystical or (even worse) obvious connection between Remus and Sirius.

And while it makes sense to me that people don't want to read their own... I just find the complaint very, very funny for some reason. Probably because if I see a place where I think "there needs to be more fic like this", I'll try to write it. ::shrugs:: But what really amuses me is that "all the good MWPP fics have R/S in them!" is actually quite the compliment to the writers on this ship. Come on, that's funny :)

[kuggerboy.livejournal.com]

lolz, Remus teh fatherfucker. Grandfatherfucker?

"All good MWPP fics have R/S" and "All R/S is good MWPP fic" is not the same thing. Neither is “All good MWPP fics have R/S” and “R/S tends to have better fiction than alternative MWPP”. It isn’t a compliment (and it’s not quite an insult either, mind); to say it is sort of misses the point. It’s a pretty big difference. “All good MWPP fics have R/S” says nothing about the quality of R/S fics, only the frequency of R/S fics, and how that affects a reader. If that makes sense.

And I don't think there is a severe lack of MWPP gen. I think there is a lack of alternative MWPP. Gen, J/L, and J/R/S less so than others, but they are all hard to find.

Like, to try to give a visual representation....

R/S-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gen--J/L-------R/S/J--------------Other-----------------------------Peter/Anyone

Something like this. R/S is at the “so cliché I will kill myself if I ever read one again” end of the scale. Gen fic and J/L aren’t the fangirl favourites, but they aren’t the anti-Puppy, so it is possible to see them around, usually as part of a larger R/S collection. R/S/J might only be that common for me since I tend to look for S/J.

Don’t really understand how being over 16 is related to social angles. I think fear of rejection is even more difficult at 14. Hah, I started dating with guys at 14-15, but I used to lie and say I was 13. And this might be my own experiences combined with stereotypes, but I thought homosexual (males, maybe) are sexually active earlier than heterosexuals? Meh.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

South Park. Uncle.

Seriously, though, I wrote a Remus-Alphard fic called Mentors that I'm very, very, very fond of. It's gen, but it deals with slash issues in terms of coming out and all that. In a commentary, I discussed if Alphard ever would have slept with Remus, and said yes, but only under a very strict set of conditions. It's very tempting to write the AU (to my own AU, given that I doubt JKR's version of Alphard and mine are the same!) where those conditions are in effect.

And "All the good MWPP fics have R/S in them" is the complaint I read. That's all. There's no deeper significance here, except that it amuses me greatly.

As for 16- it's not like there's a hard and fast cut-off age. But for a pair of boys in a relatively conservative boarding school in the 70s, one who's dealing with lycanthropy and one with a bad enough home life that he had to run away... let's just say I think an early acceptance of sex- any type of sex- for them is unrealistic. Others obviously disagree, since they write it. But I prefer them older.

But I'm also the person who wrote James and Lily waiting until they got married. So go figure.

[kuggerboy.livejournal.com]

South Park? I know Alphard is an uncle, only I think he is supposed to be like, 100some years older than Remus. (Or maybe not...she doesn't actually say, but that is the vibe I got.). And old horny guys make me smile. Hmm...tried to read Mentors and failed, it had too much Remus. I couldn't tell how old your Alphard is. Either way. :p

If all you are reading is "All the good MWPP fics have R/S in them" then I don't see where you think you are being complimented. But I suppose we all have different ideas of what a "compliment" is.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Eh, my version of Alphard is McGonagall's age, given that they were schoolmates. As you said, JKR doesn't really give us ANY details.

Hmm...tried to read Mentors and failed, it had too much Remus.

Well, yes. That's what Remus-Alphard or Remus-centric would imply ;)

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Well, the only problem with that idea is that unless the people who complain are named Gilderoy, they probably don't want to spend all that much time reading their own fanfic :)

And yeah, there's good non-R/S MWPP fic out there, but it's sometimes hard to track down. I've been toying with the idea of starting a rec list for non-slashy Remus-Sirius friendship fic, all eras, but the last thing I need on my hands is another project right now.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

True enough! :) And I'll be honest- I agree. It IS hard to find good non-R/S MWPP fic. It's one of the reasons I think Deny Thy Father was so well-recieved- it's actually a long gen story about Sirius, and that's surprisingly hard to find. And because I love MWPP and HATE R/S that happens too young, it's actually hard for me to find stuff I like in certain categories. (I mean, come on. Both Sirius and Remus realized they were gay by 11-13 and were okay with that and started sleeping together shortly thereafter? Um, NO.) So I do see the point. I just think it's kind of a funny complaint against a ship.

I've actually been meaning to start a rec list project as well, for ages, for plot-heavy MWPP (but R/S being on it as well). But yes... that whole TIME issue.... ::Sigh::

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Well, I complain about the lack of Hirai/Kaoru fics out there *from an anime called Mirmo Zibang* but I don't write them cause I simply can't.
But yeah, there must be some good MWPP fics that aren't R/S. Deny thy Father is one :D And...well, I don't know any more, but I don't care about MWPP fics with no R/S.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

The complaints don't actually annoy me. They just amuse me, because it's a funny sort of complaint to make. It's definitely a backhanded compliment to the R/S ship. The whole thing is funny, really- and actually, they do have a point. There IS a lack of good genfic about the MWPP. (Sorry, but I just don't like most of the OCs that people hook the boys up with.) I should write more one day. (Heck- even Mentors is sort of gen.)

Or I should write Remus/Alphard, like mackittenx wants me to do. :)

[jlarinda.livejournal.com]

Yeah, most OCs suck. I think the only ones I like are yours x3 Alex is awesome.
Add me to the list of people who want you to write Remus/Alphard!! xD

[madilayn.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, if it's gen MWPP fic and STILL has R/S and smut - it makes it an even BETTER MWPP fic!

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oh, -I- won't argue! :) (Although would it still be gen then?)

Gen fic

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

To be honest, there are some good gen ficcers out there, but I've come to the conclusion that the reason why most people write slash or relationship oriented fic (as in R/S) is the fact that genfic doesn't really get a look in with the HP fandom. I can only name one supposed BNF for genfic, whereas in ship oriented fic, you can make your name pretty easily.

This is why I think alot of people don't write MWPP genfic or genfic in general. It's actually quite strange that when ship/slash writers write genfic, it's actually quite stronger than the genre that they have made their name in.

I feel you about the comedy aspect of MWPP. I do remember trying to write a MWPP fic that was comedy and just gen (because I don't write anything above a PG-13 rating when I do write, sorry) and honestly? Comedy is hard to write, especially when it's supposedly purposeful.

With regards to het fanfic, if the pairing isn't canon, I won't read it. I can read Remus/Tonks because it's canon and the same Narcissa/Lucius and James/Lily. Most of the OC's are blatant authorial self inserts, and reading a writers emotional masturbation isn't on my idea of things to do, you know?

Re: Gen fic

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oh, I TOTALLY agree with you on the gen thing. It's why prankstersguide and authors like krislaughs, ignipes, topaz_eyes and paulamcg aren't more popular than they are, even though they're outstanding writers: they don't write NC-17. In fact, even though the pairing might be there, it's not the ultimate focus of the fic and therefore, it's not that widely read. Which is too bad. And the only reason Deny Thy Father got so popular (I assume) is it got Niffled.

Comedy is excruciatingly hard to write- especially nonsexual comedy. I've only written one comedy piece, and frankly, I don't think it was that brilliant. But it was fun :)

And yeah- that's EXACTLY why I don't read het with OCs. I can read OCs for temporary relationships, but outside of that... of course, I tend to write OCs, so.... ::Shrug::

Re: Gen fic

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Oops. But I guess there's a difference when OCs aren't sexual.

Yeah, it's the currency of NC-17 that skews things

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

they don't write NC-17. In fact, even though the pairing might be there, it's not the ultimate focus of the fic and therefore, it's not that widely read. Which is too bad.

Which is a reason why I think a certain writer I know switched to writing NC-17 works. Her gen is much stronger and her characters have more dynamism in the general portrayals rather than say... slash, but she got hipped to the fact that slash and NC-17 gave her a currency, and the unfortunate thing is? It worked for her. But I think her heart and her strongest work is gen though, but in HP, you just don't get the accolades if your work is all gen. Tuff titties, but dems the breaks.


And yeah- that's EXACTLY why I don't read het with OCs. I can read OCs for temporary relationships, but outside of that... of course, I tend to write OCs, so.... ::Shrug::

I must admit, I'm a bit of a bitch when it comes to OCs. On one hand, if they are written in the way you write them - as details in a wizarding world, like Remus' dad or Sirius' uncle (technically, not an OC, but I'll use it since you give a little known character some play) or a random colleague, I can appreciate their inclusion.

If its the whole notion of OC's just to show off sexual prowess or some sort of writer's fantasy, just no. Get off in your own time, plz thx. If I wanted a rash of OC's I'll go read original fiction, or go and write my own. Sad, but true.

Eeep. Comedy. I just can't do it. But yeah, I'd be up for gen fic with MWPP. I think the most ambitious gen fic I've ever read was called 'Forever Alive!' which was written by this lady for her little brother, and it was a monster of a fic. Could have done with a beta reader, and unfortunately, it was on ff.net (even though it got a fair bit of posts) but I do remember the scope of it, from first year all the way Sirius' death in OoTP.

Even in retrospect (like just thinking about it) I considered it a strong fic, and a very rare and assured piece of gen.

Re: Yeah, it's the currency of NC-17 that skews things

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

On one hand, if they are written in the way you write them - as details in a wizarding world, like Remus' dad or Sirius' uncle (technically, not an OC, but I'll use it since you give a little known character some play) or a random colleague, I can appreciate their inclusion.

That's actually what I mean with OCs, usually. I have a few OCs that play romantic roles- a guy who Remus was with for a short while and a girlfriend for Peter (because if you DO want to hook Peter up- and I like Peter with a girlfriend- you have to pretty much use an OC), but other than that that's the role of OCs. Other people in the wizarding world. My favorite (behind Damien and Alex) is actually Caradoc Dearborn (like you- I say close enough to an OC) who is Remus's boss for a while. I got tired of the SBP characterization of young, good-looking Caradoc and made him into a balding, pudgy scientist type who's Moody's best friend.

If its the whole notion of OC's just to show off sexual prowess or some sort of writer's fantasy, just no. Get off in your own time, plz thx. If I wanted a rash of OC's I'll go read original fiction, or go and write my own. Sad, but true.

Not sad at all, I think. Of course, I'm the same way. I approach OC love interests very, very, very carefully. (Especially if there's ANY R or NC-17 content.) I think I've read ONE I liked, and that's been it. (Sadly, if you do want a het relationship for Sirius, again, you pretty much have to OC it. And that's who it was with.) But the focus wasn't on the romance so much, but on how she dealt with Sirius's death and with relating to Harry and Remus after the death, and that aspect I really liked. (Plus, the writer did a REALLY nice H/G side plot that I was totally in love with.)

I tried reading "Forever Alive", but I just couldn't get through it because I didn't like the characterizations, especially Remus. Ah well!

I understand

[jazzypom.livejournal.com]

about 'Forever Alive'. I think it's the werewolf stuff that got to me, because if Remus could control his animal side, he wouldn't be needing the wolfsbane. I read it because I liked the academic side to the fic - the knights of warpulrg (sp), giving way to the death eaters, and at the end, that conversation that Sirius had with Remus was a bit of alright.

To be honest, I'm okay with most Remus characterizations, because I don't think I have the full measure of him. As long as he's not an 'alpha!' male nor a 'girl' and suitably passive aggressive, I'm cool. Sirius and Snape however, I can be a real madam about.

[elsie.livejournal.com]

On the Remus/Alphard subject...I really enjoyed those slight undertones (um, you did put those there on purpose, right?) in "Mentors" way more than I would have thought. I say if you want to write more of that, go for it. I'll read it, gladly.

(Also...going through your entries from the last several days...I'm extremely glad to hear you and your son made it through your car wreck okay. It must have been pretty scary.)

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

It's interesting how many people did enjoy that. I actually did in a wierd way, too. And yeah, they were semi-intentional. If you want the full story, I did a commentary on Mentors (http://www.livejournal.com/users/lupinslittlesis/2005/03/15/) for a meme that was going around back in March. (It's split up into two posts.) I did address that particular issue in the commentary :)

And thanks! I'm glad, too. NOT a fun way to spend a weekend!!!!